New earth pony perks

[Tankenstein_PhD]

So I figured it was about time again for the usual "let's talk about new shinies for earth ponies" thread.

EPs recently got some bonus perk slots, and that's cool. But what exactly are they going to spend them on? Aside from cybernetics, which require extra work from your GM to include, there's only kinda a smattering of perks that don't really seem to add up to any real specialty. Mechanics, maybe, but that's about it.

Now since basing perks off of canon materials is a big thing here, can I propose we get some STR centered perks? I mean, Maud Pie pretty much made earth ponies being capable of feats of insane strength canon. In case Big Mac hauling a house didn't convince anyone before. I don't claim to have any solid ideas off the top of my head, but just some stuff that basically allows for doing ridiculous things with STR seems about right.

Thoughts? Yes, no, maybe?

[TheWanderingZebra]

Well from a RP I did with a friend, the way he handled EPs were that they were pretty much stronger than the other races, even if a pegasus had the same STR or END as an EP he was fighting in unarmed combat the EP would still be a bit stronger, and wouldn't even be fazed by a headbutt while the pegasus was pretty damaged by it. I sorta think if there's new perks it should give EPs a SPECIAL advantage over the other races. That's just my idea though.

[vadram]

honestly i believe that the 3 main races are decently balanced in mad_mod's version. And cybernetics are a huge buff to EP, allowing them to possible outscale all but the most min-maxed of characters. cyberwings that make him/her a decent flyer, and they are by far the most tanky of the 5 main races (3 pony, zebra and griffin)
The reason why EP seem week is because they need time to rev up and they are more fitted for the support role most time. (earth pony artisan, and healing power of the earth mother are proof of that) and naturally it would make you seem weak, or just uninteresting.
EP don't have that certain something that makes them stand out (like unicorn magic, or pegasus flight) but they are in no means weak. you just need to think before you act and no your characters limitation. Do this and you can brawl with the best of them (except one trick unicorns cause that shit is broken with mighty spell)
For me at least an EP fills specific roles tank, healer/medic (with potions) bruiser, and general support (mechanics, crafting, repair, modding).and they excel at it. All the EP are lacking is that WOW factor. which they get when you go cyber.

EDIT: and with the extra perks they get for being an EP (especially the Egghead at lvl 1, for a total of 40/60 extra skillpoints by level 20/30) they scale quite well, and have decent power spikes whenever they get the extra perks.
So if you go for a mild high (or high) INT char with high END you would be the smart tank of the group with a lot of customization options, and the ability to make your entire party strong though hard work (and caps), unlike the temporary buffs an unicorn may provide.
You would be in one word RELIABLE:
from Reliable Firepower with Jus' buck it, Steady Grip, Years of Applebucking
to Reliable Utility: wIth Earth Pony Magic (allowing you to craft items that are considerable better than some of the normal ones)
Reliable Healing: Healing of the Mother Earth (basically +2d10 extra healing for free)
Reliable Buffing of Equipment: Ah' Fixed it!
Reliable Scavange: Gears of Harmony (depends of the GM)
All of this without being a cyberpony.
All of these and more would apply to the mad_mod version but everything in the EDIT part would also apply to Kkat's version

[TheWanderingZebra]

honestly i believe that the 3 main races are decently balanced in mad_mod's version. And cybernetics are a huge buff to EP, allowing them to possible outscale all but the most min-maxed of characters. cyberwings that make him/her a decent flyer, and they are by far the most tanky of the 5 main races (3 pony, zebra and griffin)
The reason why EP seem week is because they need time to rev up and they are more fitted for the support role most time. (earth pony artisan, and healing power of the earth mother are proof of that) and naturally it would make you seem weak, or just uninteresting.
EP don't have that certain something that makes them stand out (like unicorn magic, or pegasus flight) but they are in no means weak. you just need to think before you act and no your characters limitation. Do this and you can brawl with the best of them (except one trick unicorns cause that shit is broken with mighty spell)
For me at least an EP fills specific roles tank, healer/medic (with potions) bruiser, and general support (mechanics, crafting, repair, modding).and they excel at it. All the EP are lacking is that WOW factor. which they get when you go cyber.

EDIT: and with the extra perks they get for being an EP (especially the Egghead at lvl 1, for a total of 40/60 extra skillpoints by level 20/30) they scale quite well, and have decent power spikes whenever they get the extra perks.
So if you go for a mild high (or high) INT char with high END you would be the smart tank of the group with a lot of customization options, and the ability to make your entire party strong though hard work (and caps), unlike the temporary buffs an unicorn may provide.
You would be in one word RELIABLE:
from Reliable Firepower with Jus' buck it, Steady Grip, Years of Applebucking
to Reliable Utility: wIth Earth Pony Magic (allowing you to craft items that are considerable better than some of the normal ones)
Reliable Healing: Healing of the Mother Earth (basically +2d10 extra healing for free)
Reliable Buffing of Equipment: Ah' Fixed it!
Reliable Scavange: Gears of Harmony (depends of the GM)
All of this without being a cyberpony.
All of these and more would apply to the mad_mod version but everything in the EDIT part would also apply to Kkat's version

I think the problem is that cybernetics are the only wow factor that an EP can get, and there are problems with that. One, what if my EP doesn't want to be a cyberpony for character reasons? And second, couldn't other races get cybernetics anyway? Yeah maybe EPs may get cybernetics more easily than others (I think, I'm not an expert on rules), but that won't stop other races from getting cybernetics as well.

[vadram]

not going to quote but to TheWanderingZebra
there is a difference between a wow factor and solid mechanics (game mechanics i mean not the skill) EP are sound mechanics wise in my opinion, they just SEEM BORING to some, but then again most players do prefer to be the protagonists (or at least feel like one), EP, mechanics wise, lean better to a more supporting role. Again mechanics wise. It is very likely to have an EP protagonist, but it would probably be based more on player skill and RP then game mechanics. Ex. A defense, CHA unicorn may be one the best builds for a leader. with bonds of friendship and the right spells and perks, even if the player is more meh. For an EP, if the player is meh, or shy, he/she (the EP) may turn into a background character despite being a PC.
EP just don't SEEM exciting to play, because well, not having that special something they are basically horses, and horses are boring to us as humans because we know horses, but flight, magic and the like is something new entirely to us, and that counts a lot in a fantasy setting.

As for cybernetics... It depends on the GM. Perk wise only EP count as eligible for cyber-perks. Sure the GM may change the rule if it fits the setting better. But in both the kkat and mad_mod versions cyber perks and suits are EP exclusive. :

[icekatze]

hi hi

You'll have to forgive me for intruding on this discussion, but I feel there is a point I can make in the abstract here.

Game play and game balance are not the same thing.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference: There is a game with one button and two players. After both players press the button, an arrow is randomly generated with a 50/50 chance of pointing at one player or the other. The player that the arrow points to wins the game. Perfectly balanced, totally boring. Game balance is not necessarily fun.

Game play, as opposed to game balance, is about acting. Game play is about doing things, having agency in an otherwise controlled environment. Having some stat bonuses may be nice, game balance wise, but pressing a button and having a 60% chance to win instead of a 50% chance is still not more exciting game play wise.

People can play games in which they lose the majority of the time and still have a great deal of fun if they are interested in game play and not merely winning. (Dwarf Fortress, Dark Souls, and Ghost Stories come to mind readily. In many of the classics, like Tetris, nobody ever really won the game, but as the game got more difficult, the player ended up taking more actions at a faster pace.)

((Also: in Fallout Equestria itself, there were pegasi, dogs, hellhounds, dragons with cybernetics.))

[TheWanderingZebra]

The problem I see with the whole EP issue is something a player once told me before ... EPs are nothing more than unicorns without horns and magic. I think the issue is that people don't really see much of a difference in EPs and Unicorns STR and END wise. And there'd be probably a done of Unicorns who'd have as much END as a tanked EP since END helps in casting spells. But yeah, I see that there are some advantages to being an EP in Mad_Modd's rules, but I just think there should be far more perks for EPs that give them SPECIAL advantages against all the other races, or just make it a passive ability for the entire race at start. It's what a friend of mine did with his ruleset for his MLP RPs, he just made EPs physical wrecking balls ... and I've often found his EPs terrifying to fight against.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

Okay, some good replies and I'll try and address what points I can. Also, please bear in mind I have not used Mad Modd's system, only Kkat's Sunrise rules.

First, to icekatze's comment that asymmetrical gameplay can be fun, even when it is imbalanced: while you have a point, there are issues I take with that outlook. All the games you mentioned are niche titles, even Dark Souls. The majority of people tend not to prefer games that are so unbalanced. Further, those games are all single player. This means the player isn't competing with another human, but more just continually attempting to either complete a virtual obstacle course or to better their own high scores. The dynamic changes when other human players are added to the mix. I know that I, for one, do not appreciate playing a PnP character that is laughably bad compared to the rest of the party.

That brings me to vadram's comment that EPs are balanced, and I disagree. In the Sunrise system, at least, being a cyberpony comes with several disadvantages. No other set of perks has drawbacks like that. In other words, earth ponies have to sacrifice something for their cool stuff. Nobody else does, they get their cool stuff drawback-free. As a further aside, icekatze also makes a good point that cybernetics being earth pony only doesn't make a ton of sense canonically.

So with that out of the way, I'm inclined to agree with Zebra. It pretty much leaves earth ponies unable to do much that a well-built unicorn/pegasus/griffin couldn't do better. I see what vadram is trying to say in regards to non-cyberpony builds, but most of those examples involve just one or two perks. A unicorn or pegasus can get many, many more perks specializing in something and, because of that, be much better at that specialization. Plus, they can do things earth ponies just can't, period.

[icekatze]

hi hi

First of all, Tetris is not a niche title. Not even by a longshot. But to use another example, Star Craft is one of the biggest games of all time, and one of the major features was asymmetrical factions. (World of Warcraft, as another example of a major game, features intentionally unbalanced classes, in terms of 1 vs 1 capabilities.)

Second of all, the games I mentioned are not all single player. Ghost Stories is a cooperative multiplayer game, kind of like roleplaying. Players are typically on a team with each other. The forces arrayed by the GM against the players are almost always going to be asymmetrical. (Most GMs I know are not trying to kill the PCs with prejudice every encounter.)

Third of all, I never said that balance was boring. I said that balance does not automatically make something fun. Don't make the mistake of denying the antecedent here.

Fourth of all, I didn't even say that I thought the various races should be balanced or unbalanced. My point was entirely about their ability to act, not whether they would win or lose if they went head to head in a fight.

Game play and game balance are not equivalent.

Being able to do cool things is important for a lot of people when they are interested in playing a game and having fun. My intent was to get people to think about the different races in ways other than simply game balance. Things can be unbalance and fun, or balanced and fun. Are the bonuses that Earth ponies get fun?

((Blizzard did a statistical analysis of this in the early days of World of Warcraft, and other MMOs have done similar things since. Back in the early days of Player vs Player, they discovered that certain classes were disproportionately unused in PvP, even though there was not a discrepancy in their wins vs loses. Fixing that discrepancy involved nerfing crowd control, giving more classes access to crowd control, rebalancing it in other areas, because their research showed that people want to be able to do things. Spending the majority of a fight doing nothing, and then getting one or two lucky crits and winning, was not fun for most people.))

[Tankenstein_PhD]

Points taken. I'm sorry if I came off as insulting or confrontational in my reply.

I suppose in response to what you're saying, my reply would be that balance aside earth ponies do not feel terribly "fun" at present in the Sunrise system. Cybernetics are the "coolest" thing they've got, and even then it's hampered by the fact that you get penalties to defending against attacks on the soul and AX damage has the potential to shut down all the fancy cybernetics anyway.