Earth Pony Balance Issues

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Viewing_Glass
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Viewing_Glass » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:12 pm

Fridge wrote:...Much Awesomeness was said...
This, this, a THOUSAND times this. :ajsmug:

Fridge, you hit the nail on the head. So, rather than give Earth Ponies more mechanical things, let's ask the question: What can we give them in terms of flavor that would make them cooler? Then, once we have that settled, we can move on to putting in a mechanic to support it (should it even be needed).

Godna
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Godna » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:36 pm

Actually on the note of characters deciding to focus on perks. That's entirely character related. Just starting out with a characters default spells (Intelligence is always useful so I don't really believe that investment thing is valid) A unicorn gets an absurd amount of utility especially if they go Manipulation. Most of the spells they get remain relevent even if they never invest more perks or anything into their magic. A unicorn with 6int (far lower then any character I'd usually play) Coud easily know how to teleport, phase, and their choice of any of the other cool stuff..and I dunno about you but Teleporting along is worth more then a perk. Phase is also pretty valuable.

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Dimestream
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Dimestream » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:08 pm

I'm kind of with Fridge on this one, really. What I was getting at with this topic was not "I want bigger numbers of stuffs" it was a "man, I just feel so underwhelming and not particularly special at anything, even at my special talent."

Since I'm *IN* the Stalliongrad campaign Kkat mentioned, it would be amiss of me to ask for clarification on her ideas for EP magic because it's currently a plot arc, and I flippin' hate spoilers. But I would like some way to feel special inside a group filled with unicorns and shamans. Even if that means something as simple as the GM being nice enough to fudge a couple of rules on inventions so I can make anti-robot exploding toasters.

Word of Faust isn't doing me any good here either, not that I pay attention to her own personal headcanon anyway, :scootangel: because it's not supported by the show or the story, and it's booooring :pinkiehappy: but I'm still feeling like I'm missing pieces of what makes Earth Ponies special. Call it a whiny plea for attention if you will, but it isn't too much to ask to want to feel unique or at least as special as everyone else is, is it? :fluttershysad:

Shady_steps
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Shady_steps » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:33 pm

let the earth pony scum suffer XD ok ok i promise i am not a unicorn master race supporter XD.

do earth ponies need something cool? if they get something cool on top of the perks will it be fair to the other races?

now i don't look at stats to make a character i look at what the character does and think about what will be fun to play with. lets make a scientist, oh i know what would be fun a Griffin, Griffin Scientist! and my Griffin Scientist would be better as a Unicorn because of the spells or Better as an Alicorn because of everything but i play as the Griffin anyway because she is fun to play as. now i know this wont work for some people for lots of reasons. but i don't think that you need give Earth ponies some magic ability that will make them 20% cooler or shuffle some stats around to make then "equal" to the other races, if you want your Earth pony to be more awesome then the ruleset allows ask your GM. one last thing is that i like earth ponies to be the race that stands out because they can do great things without the gifts of the other races.

PS. KKat why you no give other races the cyberpony trait XD

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LuckyLeaf
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by LuckyLeaf » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:22 pm

Fridge wrote:But EP's don't get any of those cool things, they just get better numbers.
That is very dependent on them taking specific perks, whose availiability may take far more time than the other species need to get their own options and usefulness only applies to certain choices of characters. While most pegasus and unicorn perks already give them general purpose additions (since air movement is nearly universally useful and there are spells for a diversity of purposes), the earth pony perks are spread out between specific purposes, an actual character quite possibly only sees actual usefulness in a very small section of the possibilities. Even less than unicorns, which get a good part of their options from the very start, rather than needing to level up to seek them.

By default, they don't even get better numbers. The extra perk they get becomes negligible as time goes on, yet, if you built an unicorn or a pegasus, the most basic extra capabilities they have could take them a long way. If three ponies were built differing only in the extra perk, unicorn initial spells and pegasi's basic flight and cloud manipulation, the other two races would have a broader array of options at their disposition and the earth pony is not actually guaranteed to be able to match their effectiveness.
I found my shades!

Fridge
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Fridge » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:49 am

A unicorn gets an absurd amount of utility especially if they go Manipulation. Most of the spells they get remain relevent even if they never invest more perks or anything into their magic. A unicorn with 6int (far lower then any character I'd usually play) Coud easily know how to teleport, phase, and their choice of any of the other cool stuff..and I dunno about you but Teleporting along is worth more then a perk. Phase is also pretty valuable.
Oh, man. Don't even get me started on how broken the Manipulation school is. Manipulation and Enchantment are essentially the reasons why unicorns get an OP reputation, if not for them being able to do a little of everything with no real cost. Basically, as far as I know, Manipulation and Enchantment have every base covered in terms of how traditional roles work. Tanking, Utility, Damage-Dealing, at least. Not so much healing, although an argument can be made how useful mobility is in terms of fulfilling that healing role. There's a reason that I play a pegasus medic.

Honestly, if it were my decision, I'd at least break the Manipulation school up a little bit into Transmutation and Arcana (or Metamagic + Teleport) so that school doesn't have that ungodly amount of utility and because that makes it easier to come up with new spells, but that's just me, and I guess that'd qualify as pissing up a rope in a thread where we're talking about how we can make EP's cooler.

An argument can be made that complaining about those schools is hypocritical since I'm talking about how to make people feel like they're cool while they're roleplaying, but I'd throw in their face that they already get a degree of immense cool power because, frankly, Littlepip and Blackjack.
do earth ponies need something cool? if they get something cool on top of the perks will it be fair to the other races?


Yes, yes they do, and yes, it would be if we stopped kidding ourselves with the "special" perks they have. Frankly, Earth Pony perks are /really/ boring and they lack a certain degree of iconography. I mean, for shit's sake, they get a perk for additional carry weight. Carry weight's a friggin' joke and that's the way everyone likes it.

To be fair, they also get a couple that are really useful, like one that gives potion-packing ponies more healing to pass out, and one that reduces their chance to jam a weapon to almost nothing, but you don't think of those perks and say "Yup! Those crazy Earth Ponies are the only folks that can do that!", because when you really think about it, everypony can if they ever decided to put forth the effort. It's almost as if the utilitarian EP perks exist to pity them, and that's a horrible way to think about it. It doesn't make them more iconic at all, and the only ones that do make them feel "cooler" are the cyberpony series of perks, and they're unlikely to happen without some GM finagling because nopony sane ever looks at their leg and thinks, "You know? This thing needs a built-in grappling hook."
now i don't look at stats to make a character i look at what the character does and think about what will be fun to play with. lets make a scientist, oh i know what would be fun a Griffin, Griffin Scientist! and my Griffin Scientist would be better as a Unicorn because of the spells or Better as an Alicorn because of everything but i play as the Griffin anyway because she is fun to play as. now i know this wont work for some people for lots of reasons. but i don't think that you need give Earth ponies some magic ability that will make them 20% cooler or shuffle some stats around to make then "equal" to the other races, if you want your Earth pony to be more awesome then the ruleset allows ask your GM. one last thing is that i like earth ponies to be the race that stands out because they can do great things without the gifts of the other races.
You're missing my point. It's not about thinking that EP's need boosts to be cool, it's about thinking that they have something iconic to fall behind in order for breaking any schema to work. Orcs are big, green, and angry. Elves are thin, woodsy, and mystical. Unicorns are nerdy, magical, and can throw lightning out of their faces.

Even in the series, it's kind of a measure of how ponies live up to their racial stereotype and how another breaks them. Twilight's a huge nerd and is essentially your wizard that spends days locked up in a musty library like how you expect a unicorn to act. Rarity's a socialite dressmaker who doesn't really care about her magic as much as she cares about her social status like you wouldn't. Rainbow Dash is a hot-headed speedster that enjoys flying and flying really fast like how you would expect a pegasus to be. Fluttershy is a loving, gentle, meek creature who's kind to all the critters of the woods like how you wouldn't expect her to be. And EP's stereotype is attributed to Applejack, who's a down-to-earth, strong individual who's proud of who she is and what she does, even in the face of adversity. And opposing her is Pinkie Pie, who's as far from down-to-earth as you can get.

It isn't that I wouldn't have fun as a paranoid doctor griffon that's afraid of heights and the sight of blood too close to them, because that's really right upside my alley. It's just that EP's don't really have any iconic behavior outside of "boring normal", and I think that's a shame. And I qualify your last statement that one shouldn't be playing a race because "fuck those other guys, I'm gonna be badass without their cool stuff!", rather, the race should just have cool stuff and the badassness should come from their refusal to use it like Fluttershy refuses to take perks in flight speed, and Rarity refuses to take perk ranks in "Additional Vocation".

Sadly, nothing in Fo:E or MLP really gives them a cool feature (outside of Cyberpony, which given the breadth of cool stuff Unicorns can take, is just a start.), so there's really no real way to have a cool feature yet outside of what we can extrapolate.
By default, they don't even get better numbers. The extra perk they get becomes negligible as time goes on, yet, if you built an unicorn or a pegasus, the most basic extra capabilities they have could take them a long way. If three ponies were built differing only in the extra perk, unicorn initial spells and pegasi's basic flight and cloud manipulation, the other two races would have a broader array of options at their disposition and the earth pony is not actually guaranteed to be able to match their effectiveness.
And that is kind of a shame, and I agree with your assessment that they kind of get shafted at the very beginning. However, again, let's face it, playing from level one really sucks and should be avoided anyway because it's not very conducive for fun to fail 50% of the time at things you were trained to do. You're right in that they get a bit more variety in their starting kit (at least for unicorns, Pegusi are just kind of screwed to have flying which may or may not directly help what role they're trying to do), but unless you're a unicorn (maybe), you're going up the generic path for most of your time anyway to perform your role, and how you pick your perks for that really defines how good a character you're making.

EP's are relevant right now only because they can focus more on their role from the get-go. If they're built to tank, they can take Tough Hide. If they're built to heal, they can take Healing of Mother Earth. If they're built to deal damage, they can get Lethal Swordspony (and nothing else :/). If they're built around utility, they can take Egghead (which everypony eligible should take anyway). It's the reason that Alicorns can be argued to be balanced (even though I personally disagree), they just have a direct route into what they're trying to do, even if it isn't as flashy.
Last edited by Fridge on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Viewing_Glass
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Viewing_Glass » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:55 am

Actually, I think we are overlooking the largest bit of flavor that an Earth Pony has, and both Pinkie Pie and Applejack express this. That flavor is:

Practical implementation of Theory and the first to advance technology for Equestria with the ability to take whatever is available to them and use it to their advantage.

Caution: Spoilers ahead.

Don't believe me? Take a look at Pinkie Pie. She wants to see Rainbow Dash? She uses Balloons (Helium and Hot Air) to see her. Her biggest and most proud achievement is her Gyrocopter she uses in that same episode (Griffon the Brush Off).

Applejack exemplifies this trait, however. Her Fold-Out Applecart is work of genius (The Best Night Ever). Her tricks with her Lasso are some that would make all but the greatest of cowboys green with envy, and her abilities at herding anything (Applebuck Season, Swarm of the Century). Furthermore, we even see Applejack use other ponies to accomplish her goals, Rainbow Dash helping her demolish an old barn (Lesson Zero), and organizing the ENTIRE Apple Family to rebuild the barn (Apple Family Reunion).

However, simply using the Earth Pony pair of the Mane 6 to support my argument isn't enough. What about the Background Earth Ponies? Over a Barrel is the answer. Here, in the middle of a desert, we see an entire town built in a year purely by Earth Ponies. What does this mean? They had to:

1.) Build a Railroad
2.) Get enough wood to build the town
3.) Furnish the town completely

All of this was in a year, in conditions that couldn't of been favorable.

Now, the counter-argument. "The Super Cider Squeezy 6000". While Flim and Flam did build a marvel of Engineering based off of Unicorn Magic, I'm not sure if we find another example of that type of engineering done. In fact, that time of Earth Pony ingenuity is extremely difficult for the other races to simulate, as seen in Winter Wrap Up. Mayor Mare states: "...This kind of silliness is the reason we were late for spring last year. And the year before that. And the year before that!" Yes, Twilight did come in and take a leadership position to guide the Wrap Up to finish on time, however that is more in line with a herd mentality that equines are used to. Usually an alpha mare leading an entire herd one way or the next.

How does this apply with FoE? Starting from the Mane 6 and working your way back:

Applejack used the theory's developed by the Ministry of Arcane Sciences to help create Steel Ranger Powered Armor, as well as helping to revolutionize the gun industry in Equestria.

Braeburn took Applejack's advances in guns and developed the Anti-Machine Rifle, created to punch through armor.

Applebloom is the big winner in the Earth Pony Magic category though. Her developments of Terminals, Pipbucks and the Stables are huge achievements, and I believe had it not been Scootaloo's involvement in the Stabletec experiments, then perhaps only 1 of those stables would of failed (Stable 29, due to the Water Talisman and the poor programming of the Maneframe...by the unicorn mare Shadowhorn).

So, what does that mean for Earth Pony characters? I believe Earth Ponies should be allowed to invent schematics based on the Special Talent they possess, using the Tag Skill for that Special Talent rather than Science. It still requires a Mechanic's check to build that item (or science check for chems), but this should allow an Earth Pony to be a bit more diverse and allow for the flavor being sought so much.

Between the above suggestion and the hints I am getting about Earth Pony magic, I think that should address the issue brought up by Dimestream.

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Night Light
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Night Light » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:49 pm

Viewing_Glass wrote:I believe Earth Ponies should be allowed to invent schematics based on the Special Talent they possess, using the Tag Skill for that Special Talent rather than Science. It still requires a Mechanic's check to build that item (or science check for chems), but this should allow an Earth Pony to be a bit more diverse and allow for the flavor being sought so much.

Between the above suggestion and the hints I am getting about Earth Pony magic, I think that should address the issue brought up by Dimestream.
Given the general comment in this thread seems to be "Earth Ponies need something to be proud of/cool/iconic", I think this suggestion is 100% spot-on. It might not be flashy like a Unicorn or a Pegasus, but it would give them a distinct racial flavor. Between this and what we've seen strongly hinted at as Earth Pony magic in Kkat's Stalliongrad campaign (which, as was pointed out, is well supported by events and comments in FOE), I think Earth Ponies would be well set. They'd require more thought and ingenuity by both the player and GM, but given the concept and the potential, I think that'd be about right.

Godna
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by Godna » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:10 pm

Well I know of another system...one I had a bit of input on, but they were totally doing this before I got in. That did something like this. It's a Savage World's thingie, but basically What they wound up doing. Was giving each Race a kind of choice of special abilities (Tango's rules for this is starting down that path.) Pegasi got cloud manipulation, a stealth tree, a Speed tree, and a fancy display tree. Earth Ponies got more active abilities like a Displays of Strength or durabality Shrugging off debilitating effects. They also used to have a tree for inventing, but that was removed on account of not restricting that to anyone race.

Earth ponies could alternatively get a few predetermined trees of Free perks. Like They could all get Tail trick(+their current free perk) and diverge from there into specializations. They shouldn't contain absolutely amazing perks, but like goodies that are less frequently chosen. Like Brick Wall. That aren't Bad perks...,but are usually to situational to take over some other options.

ToWhatEnd
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Re: Earth Pony Balance Issues

Post by ToWhatEnd » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:47 pm

Personally I do think dirty Mud pones need more abilities. Alchemist Zebra's seem more in-tune with nature than any Earth pony. And they only have to sacrifice 4 perks and dump a few points into Survival, which is a fairly useful skill now, to get the full extent of their abilities. They don't have to worry about their SPECIAL's at all and can focus on pretty much anything else they want. At least that's how it is for my Zebra character. He doesn't even really have a weapon, or armor, and he still is able to hold his ground against most things that the GM throws at us. Anything that's a bit too strong for his under-supplied self his Raider Perception/Defense Slave helps him out :rwalk:

Not only that, his alchemy benefits the entire team. No one is a sub-pone cyberpone so everyone can take his stat boosting potions. So I do think Mud Slime should get something akin to Alchemy, but even more versatile. Not really crafting but something that can amplify abilities. It seems right now the only thing that they get is the ability to go full Cyberpony and become more machine than pone, but forcing a character who wouldn't like to have their karma capped off at 25 just so they can be special snowflakes like everyone else is a bad system. And unlike Alchemy it really only makes them stronger rather than letting everyone individually benefit from his abilities

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