Alternate Core Documents

[TyrannisUmbra]

There was the interesting thought that, instead of making them solely limited by number of degrees of success (Have a 100 in a skill and roll a 91? Sorry, only hit with one bullet), is to straight out decrease accuracy for ROF weaponry. Perhaps one of the best ways I have seen this done is as follows:

Each shot is at a -10% penalty to accuracy, with an additional penalty of 5% multiplied by your ROF, and if you are under Strength for the weapon, there is an additional -5% accuracy to hit for every roll per point of strength you are short.

This results in an ROF 3 weapon, when used in Full-Auto mode, giving the Wielder a -25% to hit a target.

The problem here is that it's still not enough, because of things that reduce accuracy penalties. SATS/target, trigger discipline, precise shot, and CM bonuses will still negate the penalty and let you shoot at 100% accuracy. The idea of degrees of success is to make it so that it's much harder to hit with all the shots, and more often you'll be hitting with an average number. The damage swing is incredibly high and a little unreliable, but that's better than reliable instant kills.

[Viewing_Glass]

The problem with the degrees of success idea is that you restrict ponies to using ROF and Burst weaponry, reliably, only when they have an incredibly high skill. In addition, you have a 100 in the skill and roll a 91? Sorry, you only hit once. I could instead shoot you once with a nice rifle, such as the Hunting Rifle, and do much more damage much easier, with fewer of the necessary resources required.

The odd thing is, I have, out of the... 7? characters that I run with only had ONE character be knocked out by this scenario. And that was because the GM was using a boss level encounter, with two Service Rifles on battle saddles with the upgraded springs, Armor Piercing Ammo and Spirit of Diamond (Before the order of operations was set) AND before the upgraded springs was fixed. For those that are curious, it meant that the boss was firing linked three-round bursts 5 times in a round and ignoring, at the time, up to 20 DT.

And it took that boss all of his AP, for that round, to knock me out. And then the healer came, fed me a potion, and I woke up.

For the record, I have characters that are running at 12, 12, 8, 4, am GMing a game and have three characters that are retired at level 20, 10, and 6. Out of all those games, I have only ever seen this problem come up ONCE. I can not emphasize how little I find this to be a problem... if you are worried about a PC running a set of linked LMG's on a saddle, well, ammo is scarce in the Wasteland. If you are worried about enemies with the same set-up? Well, changing the mechanic that controls Full-Auto and Burst will just negatively impact PCs more than it would those enemies.

[EDIT]In addition, making a precise shot for more than 15 AP (assuming your enemy has a 10 AGI) will mean that they can't fire their ROF weapon more than twice in a round. This also doesn't take into account some of the range penalties that the enemies can have, and since most of the ROF/Burst weapons have a range of short, that means they are also spending AP to get up into that range.

[TyrannisUmbra]

Low skills having a hard time isn't a problem. All weapons have a hard time with low skill, and 3 degrees of success is not a hard feat to achieve in most cases. And I don't know what Hunting Rifle you're using, but it most definitely does not deal even comparable damage to an equal-tier automatic weapon.

You've been extremely fortunate then, because I've seen player characters die to average auto weapons. As in, "Whoops, they missed only 1 hit and also got a crit, looks like you're overkilled by 100 HP."

I cannot stress enough how quickly the damage from an automatic weapon will ramp up. I've played a pony who used an unbalanced saddle with both a high-power rifle and automatic weapon, and let me tell you, the automatic weapon dealt probably 3-4 times the damage. Being able to deal 100-200 raw damage a turn is no laughing matter. Most weapons that don't contain 'shotgun' in their name will average maybe 50-100 at best! The only weapon attacks I've ever seen that were stronger than automatic weapon attacks in my games are an AM Rifle crit, a drugged up mare with a power hoof, and a unique plasma-based unarmed weapon designed to make my character fear death. Nothing. Else. Has. Beat. Auto. Weapons. And I've played in 7 groups too.

The weapons are too strong in BOTH PC and NPC possession. The unbalanced saddle character /ruined/ a boss fight because it was the first time she used her new automatic weapon. She dealt 250 damage in a turn, which was far higher than her normal 60. And like I said before, I've seen player characters killed in a single round from full HP because of automatics.

The thing is: Automatics are designed with 'spray and pray' in mind. You're not supposed to be able to hit with every bullet. And when you can, they become pretty ridiculous.

I'd also like to point out that your examples neglected to cite character HP. The low tier example I suspect is around 100-150, in which case it's a one-round kill. The second and third are likely around 200, in which case a 2-3 round kill, which is /still insane/.

[Viewing_Glass]

Alright then, assuming a 5 END:

Level 5: 135 HP.
Level 10: 160 HP.
Level 15: 185 HP.
Level 20: 210 HP.

At lower levels, ROF weaponry is powerful. However, as you get access to better armor and more HP, those bonuses fall away.

As for the Hunting Rifle: With the same skill, same AP cost, and the same perks as the Assault Rifle example earlier, I can fire a single bullet that hits for 42+5d10, averaging out for 69.5 damage in a single, 35 AP shot. And, I can pretty much guarantee (due to the long range on the hunting rifle) I can get off two shots, putting the damage output at around 139 points of damage, which nearly destroys our level 5 example unless they have more than 2 DT, and still severely hurts all the other examples through level 20.

As for the other difference: Cost. Running Full-Auto, the Assault Rifle puts out 12 5.56mm bullets every round, costing 12 caps a round to fire (before barter). The Hunting Rifle? 6 caps.
Range again comes into play. The hunting rifle's long range means, unless you have wings, you are going to spend a round getting into short/medium range to get into position to unload with that ROF weapon.

Alright, let's step up to our T4 example:

The AMR costs exactly the same, initially, as the Minigun. 10 more AP a round to fire, but that one shot puts out 100+6d10 (counting the same perks as the minigun example). This averages out to be 133 damage, before DT. Also, you aren't going to have any range penalties with the AMR, as it is scoped.

Cost difference is similar as well: 12 caps a round for the Minigun, 3 for the AMR.
Range Differences: Good luck getting into range to shoot up the individual with the AMR (unless you have wings). You'll have to spend multiple rounds to get into range of them, and by the time you get close? Well, you're probably already dead.

My point is: Making this change to Full-Auto, when you have a player choosing between equivalent Tier Weapons, doesn't make it a choice (outside of a character who really, really loves making it rain lead). They'll pick the single shot rifles that do similar damage to the existing Full-Auto/Burst weapons as they stand now.

[Schorcht]

Hello! I don't usually give my opinions but I thought I would in this case since I have strong feelings for this part of the rules. ^_^ I hope I don't come off as rude, or anything. Take it with the least of nastiness if it comes off that way. I'm not here to upset anyone.

The thing is: Automatics are designed with 'spray and pray' in mind.

'Spray and Pray' is just a saying. Never has a weapon been designed with that in mind, nor will one. If you want to compare the use of automatic weapons, your best bet is to call them suppression weapons for support reasons. However, automatic weapons still have the full capability to hit with a high number of rounds fired in proper hands and deal real damage, even more so with things in mind specifically for such reasons. IE: Grips, springs, bipods, etc.

Each shot is at a -10% penalty to accuracy, with an additional penalty of 5% multiplied by your ROF, and if you are under Strength for the weapon, there is an additional -5% accuracy to hit for every roll per point of strength you are short.

I play in a game that uses this with a character that runs a 95 Battle Saddle skill, she still misses quite a bit. Many things have to be considered.

One real quick one is since you're firing more shots you have a higher chance to crit fail and jam your gun, rendering you useless more often.

A big one is cost. It's rather expensive to keep the trigger down. I just ran out of ammo and am quite useless now.

Another one that hurts is the DT and DR of said enemy. Automatic weapons are meant to rip unarmored and light armored enemies to shreds, while having a hell of a time against medium to heavy armored foes.

So let's run some numbers shall we. Without perks so we can look at things where they stand in comparison to each other at their core.

Hunting Rifle vs Light Machine Gun. (Assuming 100% hit ratio, and average d10 dice roll of 5.5)
Tier 2.
35 AP cost.
Hunting Rifle does on average 53 damage at the minus of DT and DR once.
Light Machine gun does on average 164 damage at the minus of DT and DR 8 times.

A Light Machine gun will utterly destroy those low tiered armored enemies, but as soon as some mid range medium armor comes into the equation. Whoops. I'm only doing 44 points of damage compared to the 38 of the Hunting Rifle. That's one hell of a scale down there. Heavy armor? Oh no. I'm doing 4 points of damage compared to 33.
And that's at 100% hit rate with sufficient strength, when using the rules quoted it brings the LMG to 70% hit chance having its damage altered for the worse. Bringing that 44 down to 31 at medium armor.

Hence, automatic weapons and RoF at their core are not broken and are not as powerful in every situation as compared to its equal tiered brother. So NPC's shouldn't be cutting down PC's as long as they are not running around naked. Ewwie.

Regardless, have a great day guys!

[Godna]

I feel the need to point out things like damage perks adding 1d10 to each bullet for an average of 5.5 damage per bullet.



I would also like the point out imbuing spirits of fire, lightning, or poison apply their damage to each bullet as well.


I would then like to point out it is possible to enchant the rifle seperately from the clip. (Something Kkat herself made sure to put in the rules when I asked her about it ) thus allowing you to stack two damage enchantments on each bullet.

automatic weapons are force multipliers. You put any investment into damage and you get a LOT more back with them then anything else.

[Viewing_Glass]

...Ah. So you are the person responsible for rifles and ammunition being able to be enchanted seperately. I've always been of the opinion that shouldn't be allowed. Its always felt... I don't know, kind of cheesy?

However, again I will point out that investment is stopped by any player that invests in heavy armor. In addition (and this is the important thing), such a change being made to automatic weapons will make it become less of a choice between automatic weapons and single-shot rifles, and more preference to the single shot weapons (unless you have a high skill).

Again, the higher the DT, with the current system, the less impact automatic weapons have. Period.

[Rippedshadow]

While we're on the topic of weapon damage, can I point out that the damage perks for all ranged weapons really don't make sense? Sure, they're additional damage dice, but more damage is more damage. I don't know what kind of system feel we're going for, but outside of melee and unarmed, damage perks sit wrong with me. Two people (or in this case, ponies) using the same sword dealing different damage averages makes sense, it's based on your strength, but if two people used a .22 rifle, one shouldn't be allowed to (potentially) deal 30 more damage per bullet to an enemy, without factoring in crit chance, hit location, or anything.

The same goes for explosives, MEW, and any other weapon that isn't based on the user's personal strength. It's a personal complaint about system feel, though, so maybe I'm on an island.

[Mathwyn]

The only problem I have with full-auto weapons is the amount of dice rolling involved. I've switched to degrees of success for my group but at high levels where mini guns can be fired multiple times a turn, just rolling the damage slows down the game noticeably.

On another note, I've found the monster health as derived from the perks document to be way too low at higher levels. I've had 1,500 hp, 50DT monstrosities die in less than 3 rounds against a lvl 18 party. My average lvl 20 mook has to have about 300-400 Hp at this point, just to be considered more than a speed bump.

[Thanqol]

The only problem I have with full-auto weapons is the amount of dice rolling involved. I've switched to degrees of success for my group but at high levels where mini guns can be fired multiple times a turn, just rolling the damage slows down the game noticeably.

On another note, I've found the monster health as derived from the perks document to be way too low at higher levels. I've had 1,500 hp, 50DT monstrosities die in less than 3 rounds against a lvl 18 party. My average lvl 20 mook has to have about 300-400 Hp at this point, just to be considered more than a speed bump.

In your defense, our party is disgustingly well optimized. Heavy striker, healer, crowd control and support all with excellent gear and usually high on various drugs. We're pretty much the most competent and co-ordinated group the system is capable of handling so it stands to reason that we can tear through it's most high level challenges with ease. We also try not to leave things to chance and err in favour of overkill because the lethality of the system means one bad combat round can disable one of us.

Now, a group of players who don't understand the mechanics perfectly, designed gimmick characters or even just don't co-ordinate as well (we'd lose disproportionate amounts firepower if Poppyfields was focused on any school other than Imbuing, for example) would find the challenges we tend to face a lot more difficult. We're not the standard; we're the platonic ideal of a group of badass ponies.

If we leveled B-Party up to 20 and gave them all the same kit as A-Party they'd still be VASTLY less effective than A-Party. Given that it's easier to add HP to monsters if they go down too quickly than take off HP from monsters after they wipe the party I'm good with monster health staying where it is.