Tier-based Weapon List

[uSea]

I must say then, i am really confused as to what is being changed with shotguns at all then. It looks like they are loosing dice to damage, but get a higher flat damage bonus, and having more penalties added to shooting at longer range then?

On a side note i would suggest that the shot gun tier progression be something like this:

T0- single shot
T1- caravan shotgun and sawed off shotgun
T2- lever action shotgun and double barreled shotgun.
T3- Hunting shotgun
T4- Riot shotgun and Combat shotgun

I feel this better represents the way the guns worked in the game, with the hunting shotgun being one of the best guns even at the end game if you upgraded it and took shotgun surgeon. All my experiences with the double barreled shotgun make it a bit of a piece of shit that i could hardly kill anything with even if i was making a sneak attack with it VATSed at the back of some ones head.

(Sorry for the late reply, I got caught up with other things and was then sucked back into DayZ)

Without the -DT at Point Blank (which I liked the idea of, but you're probably right and it would make them too good) then the changes are as you said:
higher base damage and lower bonus damage (to make them more reliable and less variable)
and the damage loss at range mechanic becoming simpler but more severe
e.g. The Riot Shotgun was [20+5d10], now [40+2d10]. It used to do between 25-70 damage, now does 42-60.
Against targets farther than Short, the Riot Shotgun drops to 20+1d10 (instead of losing bonus damage per Yard)

The damage loss at range being made more severe is to hammer home the point that you really don't want to be using Fallout's buckshot unless you are close to your target, and to promote non-shotgun short-range weapons that were left behind due to an oversight on my part. If you look at the wording for the current shotgun rule, shotguns also lose half base damage if past Medium... but on the range chart short range guns have no chance to hit past Medium (I had mistakenly thought there was just a decent penalty). With the change, shotguns using buckshot should be inferior to other short-range weapons when engaging targets at their maximum range bracket (Medium).


The problem I see with that list of shotguns is that the Caravan, Sawed-off, and Double-barreled shotguns are too similar and shouldn't be in the same bracket it we can help it. All three of those weapons will get 2 shots per turn at best and then have to reload. This makes them relatively good for a character with fairly low AP as it gives them an option to deal decent damage with an AP pool of just 60-70. As such I'd rather separate them into the different price brackets.
I have a similar issue with putting the Riot and Combat shotguns together. Both fire pretty fast and have large, drum-magazines. In NV the Riot shotgun would get boned by an effective DT of 5, while the Combat shotgun was good against all targets (admittedly this was due to no DT in Fo3 and the Combat's obscene critical damage) so in my books it is more deserving of the shotgun throne.

[SilverlightPony]

...while the Combat shotgun was good against all targets (admittedly this was due to no DT in Fo3 and the Combat's obscene critical damage) so in my books it is more deserving of the shotgun throne.

You sure you played the same Fallout 3 that I did? I couldn't kill squat with the Combat Shotgun in that game. Felt like it did little damage per pellet and had an absurd amount of spread.

Then again, I could say the same for all the shotguns I tried in Fo3. They never felt worthwhile to me. Heck, the only shotgun I use in any Fallout game these days is the NV Hunting Shotgun.

[radmelon]

Speaking of which, I may have found an oversight in the shotguns. The dragon's breath ammo reduces damage by 2, but unlike the other shells does not multiply DT. This means that it is massively useful for penetrating armour. I don't believe that this is intentional, you may wish to fix it.

[SilverlightPony]

Real life "dragon's breath" shotgun ammunition is intended for intimidation, not damage. The Fallout games use the term to refer to incendiary ammunition, which is something entirely different in real life. Gameplay wise, Radmelon is right, it should still multiply DT, as it's still peppering the target with pellets.

[uSea]

Speaking of which, I may have found an oversight in the shotguns. The dragon's breath ammo reduces damage by 2, but unlike the other shells does not multiply DT. This means that it is massively useful for penetrating armour. I don't believe that this is intentional, you may wish to fix it.

Thanks for spotting that Radmelon! It should be fixed now.

You sure you played the same Fallout 3 that I did? I couldn't kill squat with the Combat Shotgun in that game. Felt like it did little damage per pellet and had an absurd amount of spread.

Then again, I could say the same for all the shotguns I tried in Fo3. They never felt worthwhile to me. Heck, the only shotgun I use in any Fallout game these days is the NV Hunting Shotgun.

Huh, the Combat Shotgun was my preferred weapon throughout the game. It seems to kill everything and I find it really satisfying to use. In my current play through I only switch things up for variety. Not to mention that raiders carry the ammo around like candy...

[Dance_Explosion]

I also used the combat shotgun most of the game on my first play-through, but shotguns in new Vegas were much better, as part of the all around improvements to combat that come from NV.

The riot shotgun and the hunting could be the T3 shotguns, with the hunting a more bang for your buck, and the riot a more dakka shotgun. say.. a 10-15 damage difference with a 5ap difference on top of the large difference in ammo capacity should give enough incentive to pick one or the other.

I'm currently giving a load of the combat maneuvers for melee weapons a shake down, luguna(?) blade is really fun, And my magic chainsaw is getting a solid workout on power armor. Or robots or maybe on raiders or something, i have a chain saw, and every problem can be chainsawed.

[Dance_Explosion]

Also i would like to suggest that the throwing weapons work with either melee or unarmed, since i think its weird that i can use these axes and knives to stab people but need a different skill entirely to throw them at some pony.

[uSea]

I also used the combat shotgun most of the game on my first play-through, but shotguns in new Vegas were much better, as part of the all around improvements to combat that come from NV.

The riot shotgun and the hunting could be the T3 shotguns, with the hunting a more bang for your buck, and the riot a more dakka shotgun. say.. a 10-15 damage difference with a 5ap difference on top of the large difference in ammo capacity should give enough incentive to pick one or the other.

I'm currently giving a load of the combat maneuvers for melee weapons a shake down, luguna(?) blade is really fun, And my magic chainsaw is getting a solid workout on power armor. Or robots or maybe on raiders or something, i have a chain saw, and every problem can be chainsawed.

That kind of shotgun grouping could work actually. I'll jiggle some stats and see what we get:

T2
Sawed-off Shotgun: 2x60++ (2x30+ past PB) for 55AP. 142 dam at AP 55+
Double-barrel Shotgun: 66++ (33+ past Short) for 35AP. 77 dam at AP 35, 154 dam at AP 70+

The Sawed-off will be cheaper in caps and AP (for the two shots) in exchange for a little less damage and significantly less effective range (15 feet, compared to 50 feet). The Double-barrel should be better overall, but the Sawed-off will be a good secondary weapon when a target gets super close since the AP cost is low enough to switch weapon (using claws/TK/Tail Trick + holster) and fire its two shots in the same turn.

T3
Riot Shotgun: 40++ (20+ past Short) for 20AP. 153 dam at 60AP, 204 dam at 80AP
Hunting Shotgun: 50++ (25+ past Short) for 25AP. 122 dam at 50AP, 183 dam at 75AP

The Riot Shotgun will be more expensive, be capable of more damage if you have enough AP, and have a big drum magazine.
The Hunting Shotgun does more damage per shot, reaches its 'optimum damage' with less AP (Agi 7 would get you 76AP, Agi 4 + Kamakaze would get you 77AP), and already has some mods available.


Do you think this would make those weapons different enough?

Also i would like to suggest that the throwing weapons work with either melee or unarmed, since i think its weird that i can use these axes and knives to stab people but need a different skill entirely to throw them at some pony.

I like this idea. I actually had similar thoughts for Crossbows, letting them roll to hit using either Firearms or another skill (I was thinking Survival).

[Dance_Explosion]

Well i have to say then, overall mind you, that there are few problems with the changes at this point. I do want to know what the difference is for shotguns using slugs over buckshot, as well as how Flettecht and and dragon fire rounds work.

T4 weapons need mods
melee/unarmed need some mods

I would suggest for balance purposes to assume that there is a T5 for weapons, made up of the BEL and all fully modded T4 weapons, as most weapons with 2-3 mods attached are on par with a next tier weapon.

I still think that the damage values for the hunting rifle need to be switched with the Sniper rifle, i still find the hunting rifle does too much damage as a T2 and has to be reduced some what.

But those are my only hangups, pretty much due to being a high level melee pony, and man i need the carbon-fiber parts for my chainsaw it weighs a ton!

[uSea]

Well i have to say then, overall mind you, that there are few problems with the changes at this point. I do want to know what the difference is for shotguns using slugs over buckshot, as well as how Flettecht and and dragon fire rounds work.

T4 weapons need mods
melee/unarmed need some mods

I would suggest for balance purposes to assume that there is a T5 for weapons, made up of the BEL and all fully modded T4 weapons, as most weapons with 2-3 mods attached are on par with a next tier weapon.

I still think that the damage values for the hunting rifle need to be switched with the Sniper rifle, i still find the hunting rifle does too much damage as a T2 and has to be reduced some what.

But those are my only hangups, pretty much due to being a high level melee pony, and man i need the carbon-fiber parts for my chainsaw it weighs a ton!

For how the change would effect shotgun ammo types you check here.
(I'm not super happy with the Flechette rounds. They might become more expensive but ignore more DT.)
There's also a work-in-progress idea I had about a rule for flame throwers (and I'd like to add smaller/cheaper variants at some point).

Switching damage values would be a bit too extreme, but I do agree. The Sniper has been improved a little and the Hunting Rifle has been reduced a little. So now the Hunting Rifle averages 106 damage for 70AP, and the Sniper averages 147 for 75AP (and as a Sniper-class weapon allows 110% chance to hit even at extreme ranges).

I've been planning to revise and expand the weapon mods (inspired by Madd_Mod's ideas) before posting the updated weapon revision ideas, but I am a master of procrastination so it'll happen at some point. Probably.

In the mean time, here is a summary of my intended changes as they stand at the moment. I'll draw more attention to them when the mod stuff is done but feedback at any time is always welcome.