Alternate Core Documents

[Ghostpony]

Making the change. As for getting up to full speed outside of combat...

[Josh Whedon voice] Pegasi fly at the acceleration of plot. [/Josh Whedon voice]

j/k. But seriously, I'm not really sure we need to be more precise than "a short time" for that. If the circumstances aren't severe enough to be using combat-time, then it shouldn't make any difference if getting up to full speed takes two minutes or three. Or half a minute. And adding rules where they aren't needed is the game-design equivalent of adding an explanation for how The Force works (midichlorians!) or detailing the "science" (technobabble!) behind transporters on the Starship Enterprise.

Mechanics-o-babble is best avoided when possible.

How about...
It takes approximately 6 seconds (one combat round) to accelerate to full speed for each rank of the flight perk.

I have never felt a need to worry about this my self but it sound fine to me....

[Ghostpony]

In Kkat's story Derpy preforms a sonic Rad boom clearing the sky's. This was the cause for a pretty significant freak out by Enclave personal and resulted in civilian pegasi coming down. ((granted they did have other reasons to be upset but that really put something under there tail.))

So a question for Kkat in particular and everyone else in general are there repercussions for performing a rainboom?


Another question about the new flight rules. A EP preforms a slam attack and takes no stun. But the way I seem to be reading the rules, if a Pegasus preforms a slam it takes stun damage for the collision? Am I misreading/understanding? Or was this over looked?

[TyrannisUmbra]

How about adding an additional AP cost for burst/full auto, in addition to the accuracy? So you're not paying the same to fire one shot as to fire 10. Combat rounds are only 6 seconds long, after all, so +5 burst/+10 auto AP may be appropriate.

This is a really, really bad idea. Again, it amounts to nothing more than a ninja-nerf of automatic weapons. Remember, there are no weapons in the game that are listed to be able to fire both single-shot and full auto. What you are suggesting is to claim that the AP listed for (as an example) the minigun is really the AP for the minigun to fire a single shot which it cannot do, and the real AP for actually using the weapon is something other than what is listed. And a straight increase in the AP cost of the weapons is another bad mechanical decision that would not address the perception of the problem. The answer is a resounding "no".

The alternative is to leave a glaring logical and mechanical issue within the system. The lesser of two evils would be to simply note in the weapon descriptions that firing at burst or full-auto cost more. The issue is that there is no fundamental difference in the mechanical cost of firing a weapon for single shots, a weapon for burst shots, and a weapon for full-auto -- when by all rights each of these actions should take a different amount of time to perform. It's also one of the easiest ways to balance the weapons, rather than relying solely on accuracy, which does little to affect the weapons' tendancies to suddenly kill people out of nowhere.

To be honest, I might even suggest a complete rework of how burst/full auto works. Something like how precise shot was changed to be -- you can fire as many shots as you can pay for in AP, up to the weapon's RoF for burst or 2xRoF for full-auto.

Speaking of precise shot, I'd like to suggest that it be impossible to use precise shot in conjunction with burst/full auto. That... doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do very well while firing an automatic weapon.

[Viewing_Glass]

Speaking of precise shot, I'd like to suggest that it be impossible to use precise shot in conjunction with burst/full auto. That... doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do very well while firing an automatic weapon.

You know, I totally can make a precise shot with a minigun!

But yeah, I can get behind that for full auto. Burst I can see benefiting from it.

[Ghostpony]

Speaking of precise shot, I'd like to suggest that it be impossible to use precise shot in conjunction with burst/full auto. That... doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do very well while firing an automatic weapon.

You know, I totally can make a precise shot with a minigun!

But yeah, I can get behind that for full auto. Burst I can see benefiting from it.

I could see it applying to the first to hit roll. After that the recoil would have your gun muzzle moving about.

[Kkat]

Speaking of precise shot, I'd like to suggest that it be impossible to use precise shot in conjunction with burst/full auto. That... doesn't sound like something you'd be able to do very well while firing an automatic weapon.

You know, I totally can make a precise shot with a minigun!

But yeah, I can get behind that for full auto. Burst I can see benefiting from it.

That's already the case. Precise shot only works for a "strike, shot or burst". It doesn't work for full-auto.

[Kkat]

The alternative is to leave a glaring logical and mechanical issue within the system. The lesser of two evils would be to simply note in the weapon descriptions that firing at burst or full-auto cost more. The issue is that there is no fundamental difference in the mechanical cost of firing a weapon for single shots, a weapon for burst shots, and a weapon for full-auto -- when by all rights each of these actions should take a different amount of time to perform. It's also one of the easiest ways to balance the weapons, rather than relying solely on accuracy, which does little to affect the weapons' tendancies to suddenly kill people out of nowhere.

okay.... deep breaths...

You know, you're right. Instead of the Minigun having an AP of 40, the Silenced .22 SMG (auto) having an AP of 30 and the Zebra Special having an AP of 15, and having Full-Auto and Burst have no extra cost... let's make a rule that says firing full-auto or burst cost +10 AP, then change the Minigun to an AP of 30, the Silenced .22 SMG (auto) to an AP of 20 and the Zebra Special to an AP of 5.

This creates the perception that there is a penalty for firing in these modes, which fixes the problem that people think there needs to be, without actually changing anything... except adding a layer of unnecessary complexity and causing the weapons' AP listings to be effectively inaccurate.

Of course, doing this is detrimental to the players.

But there are is an easy way to fix that. We can simplify it by making the AP entries on the weapons list reflect those values. We remove the +10 AP cost from the full-auto and burst sections and simply add them into the weapon write-ups themselves, writing that the Minigun now has an AP of 40, the Silenced .22 SMG (auto) has an AP of 30 and the Zebra Special has an AP of 15. Granted, without having something written in the full-auto and burst sections about AP costs, people like TyrannisUmbra will complain that those fire modes need an AP penalty...

..but that is because he is reacting to the perception of a lack of penalty, not anything real, and would have the exact same reaction no matter what the numbers are.

So instead of all that, I'm just going to go back to the resounding "no".

(PS: Just having some fun with this. I'm not actually upset with you, TyrannisUmbra. Just a little annoyed that you don't see how what you are suggesting actually plays out. )

[Palm]

Wait what? Autofire and burst fire doesnt cost extra time? That is very counter intitive to me, I kinda just assumed it costed extra AP. That is how it works in the fallout games as well after all. Burst fire +1 AP and autofire +2AP iirc.

Id even go as far to say that not having increased AP cost is more of an hassle simply because, AP is integral to the game, its a representation of time. And then peforming an action wich a player expect to take extra time, but not actually taking more time will cause confusion.

[Kkat]

Updated Death Dealer, adding: This perk benefits you when using a Rate of Fire weapon with which you have a skill of 50 or higher (or, in the case of spells with a ROF, Science 50).
This makes sure it covers those rare spells with a Rate of Fire. Plus, it should helps clarify why Death Dealer qualifies as a 14th level perk -- it applies across multiple skills which you meet the prerequisites for. (Otherwise, if it was just giving you and effective +10 to a skill for a limited used of the skill, it would be worse than most 2nd level perks.)

Wait what? Autofire and burst fire doesnt cost extra time? That is very counter intitive to me, I kinda just assumed it costed extra AP. That is how it works in the fallout games as well after all. Burst fire +1 AP and autofire +2AP iirc.

Id even go as far to say that not having increased AP cost is more of an hassle simply because, AP is integral to the game, its a representation of time. And then peforming an action wich a player expect to take extra time, but not actually taking more time will cause confusion.

They do cost extra time. However, that extra time is already figured into the AP costs listed for firing the weapons.

However, I can see the logic in full-auto taking more time than a burst fire. Which is the same as saying burst fire should take less time than firing full-auto. So... unless there are any objections, I'm fully ready to change the rules so that the Burst Fire action costs the (Base Weapon AP) -5.



(And looking to the future, if we ever add a weapon with a Rate of Fire that can also be fired single shot, we could give the weapon a special "Single Shot Option" quality that costs (Base Weapon AP) -10. )

[TyrannisUmbra]

You know, you're right. Instead of the Minigun having an AP of 40, the Silenced .22 SMG (auto) having an AP of 30 and the Zebra Special having an AP of 15, and having Full-Auto and Burst have no extra cost... let's make a rule that says firing full-auto or burst cost +10 AP, then change the Minigun to an AP of 30, the Silenced .22 SMG (auto) to an AP of 20 and the Zebra Special to an AP of 5.

Except you shouldn't be lowering the AP costs to compensate, except on a select few maybe, because the majority of these weapons, as calculated multiple times in this thread, will kill an appropriate level character in appropriate-quality armor -- Sometimes even exceptional quality armor -- within 1-3 turns! Even Viewing Glass's example that factored in his even higher accuracy penalties were dealing extreme damage compared to the total health of a character.

This creates the perception that there is a penalty for firing in these modes, which fixes the problem that people think there needs to be, without actually changing anything... except adding a layer of unnecessary complexity and causing the weapons' AP listings to be effectively inaccurate.

Of course, doing this is detrimental to the players.

You know what else causes weapon stats to be inaccurate? Every special ability in the game! Including the proposed accuracy penalties! Should these be factored into the weapons themselves? Players are (slightly) smarter on average than you give them credit for.

However, I can see the logic in full-auto taking more time than a burst fire. Which is the same as saying burst fire should take less time than firing full-auto. So... unless there are any objections, I'm fully ready to change the rules so that the Burst Fire action costs the (Base Weapon AP) -5.



(And looking to the future, if we ever add a weapon with a Rate of Fire that can also be fired single shot, we could give the weapon a special "Single Shot Option" quality that costs (Base Weapon AP) -10. )

The problem is that every other weapon type in the game is listed in terms of lowest common denominator, being single shots. Having one type of weapon be labeled differently is extremely confusing and counterintuitive, much MORE so than having to factor in bonuses/penalties to a weapon's default attack, which is simply a matter of noting a weapon says "Full Auto Only", then seeing the penalties listed under Full Auto.

Speaking of which... that's been bothering me a bit, and I just double checked. I can't find any place that actually says RoF weapons are incapable of firing single shots. The weapon doc explicitly supplied by the Revised ruleset makes a point to say "Burst Only" for some weapons, but never "Full Auto Only" or "No Single Fire". Where is this even listed as a thing?