People, as said. You have to think in the long run. And Fo3 NV are horrible examples of a PNP RPG. Since it has as said, the possibility to create the "perfect character".
If you give them small, but fundamental differences, it would matter in the long run. Since yes, you can have this badass TK unicorn if you spend x amount of perks into it. And now that is about all they can do. Period. And yes, having a "they do that, they do that, etc" is technically viable. It can lead up to. "Pony down" - "Lol, no matter, just leave it to the doctor. Who got shot?" - "The doctor" - "... anypony have a doctor skill above 15? No?"
And regarding "claws being useless" if compared to ex: hellhound knives. You are completely ignoring the overall use of them. Say you need to have something cut, and fast. And then tell me: Has every single RP character you have ever made had a knife in their inventory? Constantly having access to a lethal sharp weapon can mean allot. Plus "being able to take a few more hits and generally being stronger" is not a bad thing. However, generally speaking. It is true that no race should have a archetype labelled onto them. I can agree that some races would be way more suited for some things, but the "you should be able to if you want".
Also, just unrelated. I will be slacking off for a few more days due to death in the family, my own mental instability and wooziness. Really sorry for the lack of updates on the module. I'm just not feeling to well currently. But I'll try to have more done as soon as possible. (Randomly: I am still disappoint in myself for not becoming sad when hearing the news. I've become way to hollow (or whatever to call it due to past experiences)
Fallout Equetria PNP
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
I do not suffer from insanity... I quite enjoy it....
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
hi hi
I didn't say claws were useless, I just said they're not on the same level of usefulness as magic. Being someone who frequently play's a generalist character, most of my characters often will have several sharp instruments on hand. The opportunity cost for bringing along a knife is remarkably low, so there's no real reason why I shouldn't.
One way to judge the usefulness of an innate ability is to compare/contrast it against how hard it would be for the character to replicate that ability through gear. Looking at the weapon list for New Vegas, a knife has one of the lowest values and one of the lowest values per weight of any non-expendable item. Coming in at only 20 caps and weighing 1 pound. There's no real barrier to any character bringing a knife along with them.
I didn't say claws were useless, I just said they're not on the same level of usefulness as magic. Being someone who frequently play's a generalist character, most of my characters often will have several sharp instruments on hand. The opportunity cost for bringing along a knife is remarkably low, so there's no real reason why I shouldn't.
One way to judge the usefulness of an innate ability is to compare/contrast it against how hard it would be for the character to replicate that ability through gear. Looking at the weapon list for New Vegas, a knife has one of the lowest values and one of the lowest values per weight of any non-expendable item. Coming in at only 20 caps and weighing 1 pound. There's no real barrier to any character bringing a knife along with them.
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
I'd say it would entirely depend on the situation. Since yes, magic can do anything from shits to giggles. But you generally have just around one magic or school you are good at. And you'd might be surprised how many characters that doesn't buy generally useful items since "they didn't think of it" or "cba".
And while a knife is indeed cheap and whatnot. Your claws would be 1: Always "drawn". .2: higher skill then a knife if not trained. 3: could likely do more damage then one. So at any time, if you get attacked in melee if you are ranged, you could just claw an enemy without having to swap weapon or suffer a penalty. Not to mention, griffins can dual wield with quite ease.
And while a knife is indeed cheap and whatnot. Your claws would be 1: Always "drawn". .2: higher skill then a knife if not trained. 3: could likely do more damage then one. So at any time, if you get attacked in melee if you are ranged, you could just claw an enemy without having to swap weapon or suffer a penalty. Not to mention, griffins can dual wield with quite ease.
I do not suffer from insanity... I quite enjoy it....
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
hi hi
Now you're talking about them being weapons instead of tools. There's every indication that Reggie was largely untrained in hand to hand combat. I mean, really, attacking killing joke hand to hand? Its a good thing there was a unicorn around to handle those hellhound knives with telekinesis.
(Also, with battle saddles, ponies can quad wield if they like.)
Now you're talking about them being weapons instead of tools. There's every indication that Reggie was largely untrained in hand to hand combat. I mean, really, attacking killing joke hand to hand? Its a good thing there was a unicorn around to handle those hellhound knives with telekinesis.
(Also, with battle saddles, ponies can quad wield if they like.)
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
Who says they can't be both? It's like saying "Now you'¨re using fireball to attack with, and not just light campfires". The point with them is that they are versatile and not a one area use. Just like TK can be used for more then one task. And yes, they can use battle saddles, but so can gryphons, plus, they can shoot at two different targets at once. Shifting direction should be faster for them as they can easily spin around and stand/walk on their back legs as they shoot in different directions. And yes, Reggie wasn't very well trained in HtH, but the base of HtH starts 10 higher then melee weapons.
I do not suffer from insanity... I quite enjoy it....
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
hi hi
Nobody said they couldn't be both, the original point was that they're not significantly more effective than hooves as weapons, which you countered by saying they were useful as tools, which I countered by saying there's an extremely low opportunity cost for bringing a non-racial bonus equivalent tool along, which you then tried to counter by proposing them as weapons again, but my original point that they're not significantly more effective as weapons still stands. A buck to the head will kill someone just as easily as a claw. A single perk (Piercing Strike) made bare hooves effective against Steel Rangers, while conversely Kage's wing razors were ineffective against the weaker Enclave armor. I mean, Lilpip's Unicorn Horn managed to kill someone at Shattered Hoof without extensive training.
Claws and thumbs are a nice start for a generalist character, but thats not a match for pony magic. The point of my original question was to brain storm for possible ideas, not debate the necessity of said ideas, though I admit that I enjoy a good clean discussion as much as anypony. I still would like to hear ideas about different ways Griffins could compete with pony magic.
Nobody said they couldn't be both, the original point was that they're not significantly more effective than hooves as weapons, which you countered by saying they were useful as tools, which I countered by saying there's an extremely low opportunity cost for bringing a non-racial bonus equivalent tool along, which you then tried to counter by proposing them as weapons again, but my original point that they're not significantly more effective as weapons still stands. A buck to the head will kill someone just as easily as a claw. A single perk (Piercing Strike) made bare hooves effective against Steel Rangers, while conversely Kage's wing razors were ineffective against the weaker Enclave armor. I mean, Lilpip's Unicorn Horn managed to kill someone at Shattered Hoof without extensive training.
Claws and thumbs are a nice start for a generalist character, but thats not a match for pony magic. The point of my original question was to brain storm for possible ideas, not debate the necessity of said ideas, though I admit that I enjoy a good clean discussion as much as anypony. I still would like to hear ideas about different ways Griffins could compete with pony magic.
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
They're still much swifter and faster then hooves.And really? One perk from going from "basic understand of how to kick things" to "immense training of how to buck through a thick layer of metal"? I could possibly see it if you need x ranks in unarmed, but if I recall, you're using Fo3 based system, which have no ranks. And gains a perk every single level. (at least not like the previous games) And that was wing razors. Thin sideways blades have ALWAYS been ineffective against any type of armour. I mean, even toilet paper is harder to cut through with a slash then a stab. Anyhow, "one action made in part panic over several rounds" cannot be compared to "casually slitting one throats/gouging eyes per round". Heck, I can easily beat someone to death with my fists if given enough time and adrenaline. Technically anything can kill if threatened. And don't forget: A griffin can grapple. And that is a fucking lethal racial. "Grab, fly, drop". And can be very effective against hostage situations. Or used to lug around tables as cover.
Griffins claw appendages can well enough make up for the lack of improved weather control. And their generally more bulkiness makes up for their limit to never be as swift as a pegasi with both having the same perks for flying fast and agile. The pegasi being 5-10 % quicker in general due to being smaller. But the griffin possibly able to fly 5-10 % faster. Just like the difference between medium>small or large>medium. Just try and compare them to a d&d race/class. Sure, they lack rainbow magic (pony magic), but they make up for it in other areas. But if you feel like the unicorns are way better then any other race, then maybe take them down a notch by requiring much more talents, and a effective mana system? If you mean the ponies as a whole: Their "racial thing" is being very good with one, ONE thing or area. That's like comparing a pony to a ex: buffalo and just thinking "Oh, the ponies have their magic. That is far superior to having more then twice the hit points and a higher Str and End". Each race has their thing. Just like elves had secret door finding, dwarves had stonecunning and kobolds had... being kobolds. It sounds a bit like you want every race to have some hidden ancient power they can use. Sorta like 4'th edition. "All eladrin can tap into their fey ancestry and step through the fade, appearing somewhere else!... once per encounter." And remember, it's important people play a race since they want to, not since you tempt them with racial abilities...ok well, I know what is how many roll, but still. I however agree that no race should be a Xvart and at least have some racial balance. But trust me when I say griffons can more then make up for their lack of improved magic without needing air ninjustsu.
Griffins claw appendages can well enough make up for the lack of improved weather control. And their generally more bulkiness makes up for their limit to never be as swift as a pegasi with both having the same perks for flying fast and agile. The pegasi being 5-10 % quicker in general due to being smaller. But the griffin possibly able to fly 5-10 % faster. Just like the difference between medium>small or large>medium. Just try and compare them to a d&d race/class. Sure, they lack rainbow magic (pony magic), but they make up for it in other areas. But if you feel like the unicorns are way better then any other race, then maybe take them down a notch by requiring much more talents, and a effective mana system? If you mean the ponies as a whole: Their "racial thing" is being very good with one, ONE thing or area. That's like comparing a pony to a ex: buffalo and just thinking "Oh, the ponies have their magic. That is far superior to having more then twice the hit points and a higher Str and End". Each race has their thing. Just like elves had secret door finding, dwarves had stonecunning and kobolds had... being kobolds. It sounds a bit like you want every race to have some hidden ancient power they can use. Sorta like 4'th edition. "All eladrin can tap into their fey ancestry and step through the fade, appearing somewhere else!... once per encounter." And remember, it's important people play a race since they want to, not since you tempt them with racial abilities...ok well, I know what is how many roll, but still. I however agree that no race should be a Xvart and at least have some racial balance. But trust me when I say griffons can more then make up for their lack of improved magic without needing air ninjustsu.
I do not suffer from insanity... I quite enjoy it....
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
hi hi
I was under the impression that, in Fallout Equestria, Littlepip was gaining perks at a rate of one per level. I only ever played fallout 1 and 2, though I've been doing a lot of research on fallout 3 and new vegas recently. In my experience, most perks, or at least the perks that were actually worth taking, did cool things.
Thin slicing edges can be just as effective as piercing weapons, given the correct geometry. In the animal kingdom, cutting appendages usually feature micro-serration which allows them to focus pressure just as easily as a single point. Furthermore, depending on the type of material used, slicing motions can be more effective than piercing motions, especially if the armor is a non-crystalline structure, which usually have a much lower tensile strength than compressive strength. Its funny you should mention paper, since it is a fibrous material. Historically, sawing/slashing motions have been considered superior against such materials, like trees. Take a book sometime and try stabbing it with a knife, then try sawing it in half and see which one is more effective.
Also: Ponies can grapple too. Pegasi routinely lift and carry other ponies around. Its actually a common theme for pegasi to catch someone before they fall to their doom. (Not to mention that Unicorn magic can lift ponies and drop them) Back before Lilpip had any telekinesis perks, she used rocks laying around on the ground to block incoming bullets.
While it is true that on a micro scale, larger things will have a faster top speed, on such a macro scale the cube/square law of material strength effectively prevents winged creatures from achieving such a top speed. Pegasi have lower aspect ratio wings than Griffins, which would explain why they are quicker and more agile, but the griffin's high aspect ratio wings are not suited to speed, they're suited to long distance soaring and endurance.
I am trying to stay away from Dungeons and Dragon and I'm not trying to balance everything within a margin of error of a tenth of a percentage point. I absolutely can't stand the concept of "once per day," abilities. I just want to give each race something uniquely theirs. I want people to not be tempted to pick another race than they'd like because one race is obviously better, I don't want to punish people for roleplaying instead of min/maxing.
I actually am using an "effective mana" system at the moment, because in FO:E, Littlepip overexerting herself and burning out was a recurring theme. Special abilities cost fatigue points, but that goes for all races.
I was under the impression that, in Fallout Equestria, Littlepip was gaining perks at a rate of one per level. I only ever played fallout 1 and 2, though I've been doing a lot of research on fallout 3 and new vegas recently. In my experience, most perks, or at least the perks that were actually worth taking, did cool things.
Thin slicing edges can be just as effective as piercing weapons, given the correct geometry. In the animal kingdom, cutting appendages usually feature micro-serration which allows them to focus pressure just as easily as a single point. Furthermore, depending on the type of material used, slicing motions can be more effective than piercing motions, especially if the armor is a non-crystalline structure, which usually have a much lower tensile strength than compressive strength. Its funny you should mention paper, since it is a fibrous material. Historically, sawing/slashing motions have been considered superior against such materials, like trees. Take a book sometime and try stabbing it with a knife, then try sawing it in half and see which one is more effective.
Also: Ponies can grapple too. Pegasi routinely lift and carry other ponies around. Its actually a common theme for pegasi to catch someone before they fall to their doom. (Not to mention that Unicorn magic can lift ponies and drop them) Back before Lilpip had any telekinesis perks, she used rocks laying around on the ground to block incoming bullets.
While it is true that on a micro scale, larger things will have a faster top speed, on such a macro scale the cube/square law of material strength effectively prevents winged creatures from achieving such a top speed. Pegasi have lower aspect ratio wings than Griffins, which would explain why they are quicker and more agile, but the griffin's high aspect ratio wings are not suited to speed, they're suited to long distance soaring and endurance.
I am trying to stay away from Dungeons and Dragon and I'm not trying to balance everything within a margin of error of a tenth of a percentage point. I absolutely can't stand the concept of "once per day," abilities. I just want to give each race something uniquely theirs. I want people to not be tempted to pick another race than they'd like because one race is obviously better, I don't want to punish people for roleplaying instead of min/maxing.
I actually am using an "effective mana" system at the moment, because in FO:E, Littlepip overexerting herself and burning out was a recurring theme. Special abilities cost fatigue points, but that goes for all races.
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
She did indeed. And most of them were quite "simple" in what they did, some exceptions however. Same goes for Fo3, they did things, but none were exactly "you hooves have 100 % armour piercing abilities for some reason". More like "increase your small guns and repair by 5" or "drink radioactive water with 50 % less ill effect". But yes, in Fo3 you got one every level. And they are supposed to scale somewhat slowly with your level. In the sense of TK vs unarmed, it would be like Pip went from her starting level TK to the third perk in one perk almost. If all perks were supposedly to do something badass, it would create huge drastic gaps by a few levels. Sorta like D&D does, but worse. It took Pip 4-5 levels to reach her goddessly TK. See it as a monks unarmed upgrades. You first need "Improved unarmed" to take "Stunning blow" and so on.
And yes, I know. And their claws can either slice or pierce. As for saws, the only animal that has that as a racial is the sawfish... sorta. And we're talking about (mostly) single layered materials here. Not several layers of the same. But quite frankly, if you find the time to hold an enemy down while you saw into them, then kudos to you.
Ponies can grapple yes, but who does it better? The ones with hooves, or the ones with claws they can hook into their prey? And which would be easier to shrug off? Grasping hooves, or the claws embedded into your flesh? And I wouldn't say "common", but it can happen. It's not a routine action however. And to lift another pony, a unicorn need ~2 perks to gain enough strength to lift someone, so that is not a comparable thing. It's like saying all humans can write just as well with both arms... sorta, or something... all griffins have their claws and can carry stuff. (unless injured). And yes, the ability to lift one minor object vs dual wielding riot shields while barging down a hallway with superior cover at no penalty. (actually, I am going to make that a NPC in my game xD) It is pointed out by Kkat a unicorn need perks for 1: lifting more then one thing simultaneously. 2: Lifting heavier then ~25-50 ibs objects. So comparing a racial ability to something they could learn with perks is like saying all unicorns CAN fly, since they can, they just need to learn the "wings" spell. Or EP only needs to become engineers and invent a gyrocopter or a jetpack. A "racial" racial is something all of them have, not something they "could" get. Such as "All humans have an extra feat" not "all humans have everything as a class skill since they CAN take jack of all trades"
Tbh, I'm not to much into the anatomy and whatnot of wings, but as said there, they got different aspects of it.
And staying away from D&D can be a good thing, as long as it's done properly. I rather dislike "once per day" as well... and honestly, I don't know why I have a few of those in my talents. But then again, talents are optional, so eh. But in a whole, unicorns will be the "best" race, due to the "there's a spell for that". They are without a doubt, the most versatile race. They might not be the "best" in several areas, but they can do them all. And in their own be a walking armoury if you'd want to.
And I hope so. I still need to figure out a decent stamina system for my own system. I just want to avoid to many things to keep track of. I might possibly use Eon's system for that however.
Also, I hope I managed to at least sound like making a point heh.
And yes, I know. And their claws can either slice or pierce. As for saws, the only animal that has that as a racial is the sawfish... sorta. And we're talking about (mostly) single layered materials here. Not several layers of the same. But quite frankly, if you find the time to hold an enemy down while you saw into them, then kudos to you.
Ponies can grapple yes, but who does it better? The ones with hooves, or the ones with claws they can hook into their prey? And which would be easier to shrug off? Grasping hooves, or the claws embedded into your flesh? And I wouldn't say "common", but it can happen. It's not a routine action however. And to lift another pony, a unicorn need ~2 perks to gain enough strength to lift someone, so that is not a comparable thing. It's like saying all humans can write just as well with both arms... sorta, or something... all griffins have their claws and can carry stuff. (unless injured). And yes, the ability to lift one minor object vs dual wielding riot shields while barging down a hallway with superior cover at no penalty. (actually, I am going to make that a NPC in my game xD) It is pointed out by Kkat a unicorn need perks for 1: lifting more then one thing simultaneously. 2: Lifting heavier then ~25-50 ibs objects. So comparing a racial ability to something they could learn with perks is like saying all unicorns CAN fly, since they can, they just need to learn the "wings" spell. Or EP only needs to become engineers and invent a gyrocopter or a jetpack. A "racial" racial is something all of them have, not something they "could" get. Such as "All humans have an extra feat" not "all humans have everything as a class skill since they CAN take jack of all trades"
Tbh, I'm not to much into the anatomy and whatnot of wings, but as said there, they got different aspects of it.
And staying away from D&D can be a good thing, as long as it's done properly. I rather dislike "once per day" as well... and honestly, I don't know why I have a few of those in my talents. But then again, talents are optional, so eh. But in a whole, unicorns will be the "best" race, due to the "there's a spell for that". They are without a doubt, the most versatile race. They might not be the "best" in several areas, but they can do them all. And in their own be a walking armoury if you'd want to.
And I hope so. I still need to figure out a decent stamina system for my own system. I just want to avoid to many things to keep track of. I might possibly use Eon's system for that however.
Also, I hope I managed to at least sound like making a point heh.
I do not suffer from insanity... I quite enjoy it....
Re: Fallout Equetria PNP
hi hi
I may sound like I'm nitpicking, but many large predators employ sawing motions to kill and devour their prey, the most famous of which is possibly the tiger shark which saws through sea turtle shells. Sawing can be just as effective as piercing at equal levels of energy expenditure, so while you might think it is difficult to hold someone down and saw through their armor, it is often equally as difficult to hold someone down and stab through their armor.
Anyone can strap armor to themselves, if you really wanted superior cover, you'd take a ballistic shield and cautiously roll it down the hallway on its wheels instead of grabbing a pair of riot shields and hoping nobody shoots your legs out.
Of course, no game is without its little gamest quirks and rules manipulation. I was always a fan of the spring attack plus spiked chain myself.
I may sound like I'm nitpicking, but many large predators employ sawing motions to kill and devour their prey, the most famous of which is possibly the tiger shark which saws through sea turtle shells. Sawing can be just as effective as piercing at equal levels of energy expenditure, so while you might think it is difficult to hold someone down and saw through their armor, it is often equally as difficult to hold someone down and stab through their armor.
Anyone can strap armor to themselves, if you really wanted superior cover, you'd take a ballistic shield and cautiously roll it down the hallway on its wheels instead of grabbing a pair of riot shields and hoping nobody shoots your legs out.
Of course, no game is without its little gamest quirks and rules manipulation. I was always a fan of the spring attack plus spiked chain myself.