Fixing Magic

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TenMihara
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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by TenMihara » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:33 pm

Okay, I can concede that casting maybe shouldn't be a go-to offensive option when you've got guns and bombs handy that anypony can use without too much in the way of training. However, I still think there's room for a bit of leeway on the relative power of casting as an offensive option.

As for the perks, I like the idea of giving more spells as options (particularly for Additional Vocation.Count). Variety is the spice of life, but at the same time too much variety makes it difficult to focus. Perhaps there is a happy medium to be found? After all, Magic is suppose to compliment special talents, excepting the few cases where magic -is- one's special talent.

Also I apologize for getting os heated in the IRC; I was just having difficulty understanding where you were coming from. I was probably focusing too much on the game side and too little on the flavour side.

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Kkat
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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by Kkat » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:51 pm

After discussion, we have altered the Advanced and Expert spells perks so that they offer more spells and allow you to take those spells in multiple spell sets. This will reduce the number of truly required perks for a dedicated spellcaster.

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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by TenMihara » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:03 pm

Okay, putting aside previous points of conflict, one of my players in group 7 had an illusion spell I've been letting him use, and I figured I'd see about getting it added to the list proper (note: he invented it before the list was expanded recently)

Illusion Spell
Name: Phantasm (Adv.)
Advanced: (Cost 40) Conjures a horrifying image of the target's worst fear in their mind, causing them to flee from combat in terror. Caster rolls 1d10+Pot vs the Target's 1d10+Perception (to disbelieve the illusion). If successful, the target flees for Pot/2 rounds.
Expert: (Cost 50) As above, but the Check is increased to 1d10+Pot+2, and the target flees for Pot rounds.
Possible variants:
-Fear causes the target to experience psychosomatic paralysis, causing them to remain rooted to the spot in fear instead of fleeing.
-Expert level can potentially cause the target to die of fright if they critically fail their Disbelief check.

You can modify the mechanics of it as you see fit to work within your current system, but I think the underlying idea is a cool option for illusionists. Kind of similar to the Command Spell.

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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by TyrannisUmbra » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:54 am

We've spoken on the IRC before, and I've mentioned a few of my concerns. I feel like with the recent changes made to help support the spell system, I should post them here.

Please keep in mind that everything I have to say is from experience playing a unicorn designed to be a full caster. Every point made is from the perspective of a unicorn who is taking all the necessary perks to improve casting. Additionally, keep in mind that I have had experience designing a PNP system from scratch, so I actually know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about game-based issues.

About the AP concern: This is a combination of the highly restrictive AP cost combined with the large disparity in spell power -- this effectively means that it's literally impossible to compete with any other character unless you're only casting the top tier spells. I play a largely indirectly supportive character (No buffs or healing, but instead situational utility spells), which relies on high VER over POT, and most of the time I feel completely useless because ALL I really have at my disposal are my spells, and I can only cast one mediocre effect per turn. I only feel like I've been instumental to party success a maximum of two times over the course of the entire time playing

The AP concern is something that could easily be rectified by making spells have an AP cost that is unique on a spell by spell basis, in addition to a strain cost. I agree that some of the spells are too strong to be used more than once per turn, just like some weapons are too strong to be used more than once per turn -- but on the other end of the spectrum, most of the spells are so... terrible that it's pointless to use them at all at such a cost.

The perk that reduces AP cost is, to be frank, a completely useless perk for a caster build unicorn if spellcasting costs remain as-is. The only kind of unicorn it helps are those that barely cast any spells at all, because it lets them do more things that are not casting a spell.

The DPS concern: You stated earlier that offense focused casters should not put out comparable dps to someone wielding a strong weapon. This might be a viable standing if you had separate AP pools for using weapons and casting spells, but as it stands having all offensive damage spells be VASTLY inferior to the nearest weapon comparison just makes it so that these spells are a complete waste to learn, and a complete waste to cast. Casting and attacking with a weapon are mutually exclusive actions. Unlike a game like D&D, the system does not give you both a casting and an attacking action per turn -- both actions are tied to the same pool of AP, meaning you have to choose between attacking OR casting for every action you take. If casting is always the inferior option, then it ceases to be an option at all.

I'm not saying damage spells need to be top-end dps, but I am saying that they need to be worth their cost in comparison to every other action you can take, or I might as well re-roll an earth pony. If my spells are dealing low damage because of low casting stats, that's one thing. It's another thing entirely when every weapon in the game can deal 5-10 times the amount of damage in a single turn.

POT vs VER:
There's a HUGE disparity between the importance of POT and VER for any kind of unicorn. In every conceivable way, POT is the superior stat. The biggest reason behind this is the fact that VER does nothing to aid you in combat -- literally nothing. My suggestion would be to have VER lower AP cost of spells. This way the POT vs VER decision is more meaningful. You'd be able to either choose to have stronger spells, or to be able to cast more, less strong spells. It's not even a matter of equalizing the stats for one spell -- The main reason to be a VER unicorn would be the ability to cast multiple different spells vs the POT unicorn casting fewer spells, both in number and variety.

Number of perks:
I understand where you're coming from with the argument you made for this matter. I agree that to be a strong caster, you need to perk for it, just like you need to perk for everything else. The difference is, for the most part, caster perks are either too good, or too bad in comparison to the other perks. Not only this, but in general to be a focused caster, you need to take every caster perk to break even, and this isn't even counting all the miscellaneous perks that you might want for other kinds of casters.

The problem as I see it, is that the perks are designed to be restrictive rather than provide a bonus. Having a perk for advanced spells is all well and good, the problem lies with the fact that basic spells are so bad that taking the advanced spells perk becomes a requirement to "break even" with other races. (I also disagree with giving more spells on top of Advanced/Expert -- yes it removes the need to spend another perk slot, but it also makes the perks too good, and means that Additional Spell Count is essentially a useless perk, since you'll be getting so many spells just by performing the necessary upgrades on your existing spells.)

If you take a look at the unicorn perks, almost all of them are designed to "fix" problems with being a low level unicorn, instead of giving you awesome, fun bonuses like all the other perks do. Where's the unicorn perk that gives all damage spells a DT penetrating effect? The only unicorn perk that I personally thought was a well-designed, fun perk was the one that made horn glow optional, because it did something above and beyond the norm, instead of making up for your lack in ability.

Miscellaneous:
There needs to be more spells, put simply. I'm a 5 VER unicorn, and at level 9 I already have more spells than I actually want. I've had to resort to making up spells or taking spells from the original spell document to fill in the vacancies.

Also, I've been working on making my own set of updated magic rules, based on what I perceive are the flaws in the current system, so that if I ever decide to GM a game, I'll have a system I feel confident in using. I feel obligated to link it here, so you can take a look from it, possibly gaining something out of taking a look at it, or possibly not, but I feel like I should post it for you. Everything in this document reflects things that I feel are either flawed or ambiguous with the current system.

Summary:
  • Giving AP costs unique to each spell would solve 80% of the problems with the current spell system, from what I've taken out of my experience.
  • There needs to be a use for VER in combat.
  • Unicorns needs less mandatory perks, and more fun/optional perks that give a bonus, not make up for a lack.
  • More spells!
  • Spells need to be balanced against everything else.
I hope you've been able to understand my point. I don't want to sound like I don't appreciate the work you've done. I attempted to design my own system for FO:E PNP, and didn't have nearly the amount of success that you've had. For that, I applaud you all. I only want to offer my own suggestions to help.

If you have any questions for me, I'd be MORE than glad to talk to you at length. I would very much enjoy it.

EDIT: One last thing. There totally needs to be an "Assisted Targeting Spell" -- SATS is described clearly as being a spell utilized by the pipbuck, so it makes sense that there would be a unicorn-castable version too. It would work wonders under offense.

Another edit: Oh, something else that crossed my mind -- POT seems to be balanced with a max of 10 in mind, which is WELL above and beyond the exceptional. A POT or VER of 3 is the average given by a stat of 5. This should be the "average" taken into account by all spells. If you have a POT of 3, you should be an average caster. If you have a POT of 5, you should be an exceptional caster. As of right now, it seems like 5 is average and 10 is exceptional -- the only way to even attain a 10 is to start with 5 and stack it to max. Balancing the game around this anomaly means anyone who doesn't min-max is left out in the cold.

On a related note, the POT/VER perks should cap at 3 ranks for balance reasons.
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Kkat
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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by Kkat » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:54 am

TyrannisUmbra wrote:We've spoken on the IRC before, and I've mentioned a few of my concerns. I feel like with the recent changes made to help support the spell system, I should post them here.
Thank you for voicing your concerns. You do have a some good points. However, some of your points seem to come largely from an extremely different viewpoint of what spellcasters should be and the role they should be able to play as characters. Try to understand that this system is designed with the primary goal of making spellcasting in the game approximate the spellcasting in Fallout: Equestria. We are trying to bring the flavor of FOE and MLP:FiM to the magic system.

In Fallout: Equestria, you never see a pony standing toe-to-toe with a gunfighter through magic. Magic is used in combat as a fallback, a last resort or because the spellcaster is relying on unique properties of the spell. The only exception to this is the alicorns, who by nature of Unity, are all casting spells at Expert level power. And even then, their most worrisome spells aren't the lightning bolts they throw around, but their alicorn shield and the horrific heart attack spell.

An average dedicated spellcaster should look like Velvet Remedy. Velvet Remedy has less than a dozen spells. (So she has never taken Additional Spell Count.) Medical is her primary skill set, and she has a small number of spells in Illusion and Defense. (So she has taken Additional Vocation twice.) She has shown herself to have Expert level spells in her primary and at least advanced in the others. (With the alteration of the Advanced Spells and Expert Spells perks, a single taking of each of these perks is all that is required to duplicate that level of casting.) As such, Velvet Remedy's character build requires four magical perks. We can safely assume she spend at least four more on optional magic-enhancing perks (Powerful Caster, Versatile Caster, and/or Spell Alacrity). That still leaves her with over half her pre-epic perks available for non-magic perks. We know she took at least a few, as she had Shotgun Surgeon and Master Trader, amongst others.

The template for a low-potency, high-versatility caster is Trixie from Boast Busters. Trixie is a mid-level caster who has focused almost entirely on spellcasting. She has illusion, manipulation and offensive spells (so she has taken Additional Vocation twice) with and is capable of casting Advanced spells (particularly in Illusion, which is her primary). She has a naturally high versatility which she has increased further through the Versatile Caster perk.

Twilight Sparkle is the impossible munchkin level of spellcasting. She represents a spellcaster who is at least 20th level with a Potency and Versatility of 10. Characters are not expected to be able to do what Twilight Sparkle does, and they are never expected to achieve maximized Potency and Versatility. Even then, you will note that Twilight Sparkle is not particularly impressive as an Offense caster. She holds her own, but is still only casting a single spell per turn except when under the influence of the reality-bending power that is Pinkie Pie. The Twilight Arcane Blast Gatling isn't something Twilight can do... it's something Pinkie Pie can make her do.

The rules that we have created my not mechanically benefit the sort of spellcasting play that you desire. But they do accomplish the primary goal of creating these rules in the first place. And we consider that far more important. This is Fallout: Equestria, the RPG. It should feel like Fallout: Equestria to play.

About the AP concern:
The only way I can see reducing the AP on all spells, or giving spells their own AP costs, is if we simultaneously introduced a mechanic that would prevent casting multiple spells a turn even if you had the AP to do so. This would allow a spellcaster to then take more non-spellcasting actions in a turn. A high-level perk could then be introduced, say about level 16, which would allow you to cast a second spell in the same turn. Absolutely under no circumstances are we going to alter the rules to allow low-level casters to cast twice in a turn. An alternate method that I can see for handling AP concerns is to increase the AP reduction of Spell Alacrity to -10 AP. A drop to 35 will still prevent casters from casting twice unless they have poured enough points into Agility that their spellcasting stats have suffered. I'm concerned that a spellcaster with both levels and Action Filly would be able to cast three spells a turn... but then, they would have spent three perks to do so, and I think that should be rewarded.

I will bring up both of these ideas when next we work on the document. Personally, I will push for the latter, as the former adds an additional level of complication to the casting system and does not conform with the rest of the AP system.
The DPS concern:
I have addressed this issue. I do not see it as a concern for players who are approaching spellcasting in Fallout: Equestria as it is intended.

If someone creates a character who is a farmer, and then complains that scythes and pitchforks aren't balanced in combat with machine guns and grenades, then the only response I can give is "Yes, but you're playing a farmer. Why are you expecting to have DPS equal to a soldier?" There are no "front line spellcasters" in this game. Just because some of the tools in a unicorn's toolbox are primarily designed for dealing damage does not mean that they should put a unicorn who focuses on those on the same level as a person who has specialized in weapons of war.
POT vs VER:
As we expand the spell lists, the value of Versatility is increasing, but Potency is still more useful when it comes to spell effects. Instead, Versatility is also the stat that determines how many spells you have, and thus plays a vital part in every spell by letting you have that spell.

Versatility does come into play in many Offense spells. It determines rate-of-fire for Arcane Blast, the number of knives you get with Eldritch Knives, the number of lightning strikes you get from Storm Cloud, and the overall effectiveness of Rainbow Tornado. Still, the role of Versatility in Offense spells is still considerably less than in some other spell sets. However, I find it alarming that your argument is "Versatility isn't useful in combat so Versatility is useless period." Fallout: Equestria is not a hack-n-slash game. "Useful in combat" does not equal "useful in game."
Number of perks:
I just generally disagree with pretty much everything you say here. First, because as I have shown above, you do not need a massive number of perks to build a dedicated spellcaster as they are represented in Fallout: Equestria. Second, because you assert that basic spells are useless and that playing a spellcaster with only basic spells is pointless. This may be your experience, but I find it clear that you are expecting magic to fulfill a role that it is not intended to fulfill.

Again... and it is getting really tiresome to state this...
This is not an MMO, where combat is king and all combat styles for all character designs must be balanced against each other. This is not D&D where Wizard is your class and spellcasting is what you do and all you do. In this game, spells are a tool-set. Whether you use them or not, and how much of them you use, is up to you. You can play a unicorn like Trixie who focuses on being a great spellcaster, or you can play a unicorn like Rarity who is focused on other things and chooses a hoof-full of spells that help assist you. (I'm sorry, you're not going to be Twilight Sparkle... although if you do absolutely nothing else, then by level 20, you might be within sight of her.)
Miscellaneous:
Agreed. And we are working on it. The one thing that the revised magic system needs most are more spells. Fortunately, we are adding more each week.
Also, I've been working on making my own set of updated magic rules
We highly encourage this. The magic system we are creating is clearly not going to appeal to everyone. People like you who want to play unicorn wizards who are standing toe-to-toe with machine-gunners on the battlefield, slinging spells and showing the great power of their arcane might... are simply going to need another system, because that's not what magic is in Fallout: Equestria. And this system is designed to make magic what magic is in Fallout: Equestria. Mechanics are there to support and uphold flavor.
EDIT: One last thing. There totally needs to be an "Assisted Targeting Spell"
We've got that. Keep in mind that we have made sure that magical items to not look like "spell X cast from an item rather than a horn". (We aren't doing D&D wands and staffs here.) The effects of cast spells are not the same as the effects of spells enchanted into arcano-tech items, but they have enough similarity that it is easy to see that the magic research that resulted in the former also resulted in the latter.

The spell is "Target". It is an Illusion spell with a very low strain cost which negates combat penalties.
On a related note, the POT/VER perks should cap at 3 ranks for balance reasons.
The perks Powerful Caster and Versatile Caster are akin to Extra SPECIAL (the "Intense Training" perk) specific for unicorns. Since Potency and Versatility are designed to cap a 10 (like any SPECIAL, and the maximum you can start with is 5, then these perks need to have a maximum of 5 ranks.

A character in Fallout: Equestria starts with 5's in all SPECIALS and is given 5 more points to spend. A player building a melee fighter will almost certainly put a good number of those points into Strength and probably Endurance. Someone building a sniper will pour most of those into Agility and Perception. Therefore, it is reasonably expected that anyone creating a unicorn with the intention of focusing on spellcasting will put four of those 5 points into Endurance and Intelligence, (spending the last point, plus any gained by lowering stats, to flesh out the character's SPECIALS in other areas). Putting two points into each gives the character an Endurance of 7 and an Intelligence of 7. And (7 / 2, round up) = 4.

This means that the average beginning "dedicated" spellcaster is expected to have an average Potency and Versatility of 4. Spells are designed focusing on what a Potency 4, Versatility 4 character could do, and with an eye out for limiting how powerful the spell could get in the hooves of a munchkin with 10 Potency or Versatility.

It is expected that a truly "dedicated" spellcaster could possibly reach Potency or Versatility 10, but that no PC caster will ever reach both.

I am currently playtesting this magic system in a game that gives perks every other level. My unicorn is a dedicated spellcaster who will probably spend two thirds of her perks on spellcasting. She has started out with a an amazing 5 Versatility, 4 Potency and will be taking a rank in Powerful Caster at some point. She is a front-line combatant whose tagged skills are Battle Saddles, Repair and Science. By throwing a lot of skill points into Medicine, she has an average skill level of 50 across her tagged skills and Medicine. She is skilled in Imbuing spells which she uses to boost her damage output and enhance the fighting capabilities of other party members, as well as having a few Medical spells which have made her the party healer.

And she is fun to play.

--Kkat

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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by Kkat » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:00 pm

After discussion, we have made some increases in the damage output of most Offense and Imbuing spells. The original spell designs were based on working in comparison to the weapons in Sunrise's original system, but since advanced weapons rules have given more powerful weapons, we agreed that some adjustments could to be made.

Spell Alacrity has had the AP reduction increased to -10.

Edit:
My current goal is to make sure each spell set has at least six basic spells. This way, a new unicorn with a starting maximum of Versatility 5 will have at least 8 spells to chose from (6 from their primary skill set plus the two general spells) when making initial spell selections. Since the perks Additional Spell Count, Advanced Spells and Expert Spells all allow you to chose spells from multiple spell sets, characters will have a more comfortable variety of spells to chose from later in the game.

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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by TenMihara » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:28 pm

This means that the average beginning "dedicated" spellcaster is expected to have an average Potency and Versatility of 4. Spells are designed focusing on what a Potency 4, Versatility 4 character could do, and with an eye out for limiting how powerful the spell could get in the hooves of a munchkin with 10 Potency or Versatility.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with this point. A spellcasting character, if you're truly advocating maximum diversity in what players are capable of doing with their magic, shouldn't be 'expected' to do anything. They should have the freedom to allocate their stats wherever they would like, and still have the ability to glean a reasonable amount of benefit from their casting abilities.
I am currently playtesting this magic system in a game that gives perks every other level. My unicorn is a dedicated spellcaster who will probably spend two thirds of her perks on spellcasting. She has started out with a an amazing 5 Versatility, 4 Potency and will be taking a rank in Powerful Caster at some point. She is a front-line combatant whose tagged skills are Battle Saddles, Repair and Science. By throwing a lot of skill points into Medicine, she has an average skill level of 50 across her tagged skills and Medicine. She is skilled in Imbuing spells which she uses to boost her damage output and enhance the fighting capabilities of other party members, as well as having a few Medical spells which have made her the party healer.
This is a very specific build, and while it is most certainly one that synergises the casting and non-casting abilities of that particular character to great effect, the concern is that other builds are presently having difficulty being this effective under the same rulings. If you are testing this build and only this build, you aren't going to be able to see where other builds need strengthening. For example: a high charisma, high perception unicorn who's tags are Barter, Speech and Lockpick, and who is versed in Illusion and Detection magic, but overall has below average versatility and potency. As it stands, I feel this character would have a hard time fitting into a party, lacking any kind of weapon skill or medical abilities.

That is just one example, but there are a huge number of permutations that should be looked at before it can truly be ruled that a system is effective or not.

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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by Kkat » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:44 pm

TenMihara wrote:I'm afraid I have to disagree with this point.
You are misinterpreting what I am. We are not dictating that spellcasting characters spend their points a certain way, nor creating a system that requires them to do so. We are anticipating that players will behave in a way that players everywhere have behaved in on a regular basis, and using that reasonable prediction to aid in our system design calculations.
This is a very specific build...
No, this is a character. They are more fun than builds.
For example: a high charisma, high perception unicorn who's tags are Barter, Speech and Lockpick, and who is versed in Illusion and Detection magic, but overall has below average versatility and potency. As it stands, I feel this character would have a hard time fitting into a party, lacking any kind of weapon skill or medical abilities.
That just makes me feel kinda sad for you. Honestly, you're looking at a character with high charisma and high social skills. This would be an excellent addition to any party, helping them through situations where diplomacy or intimidation are a better route than firepower. The character will be able to help the party maximize their profit in buying and selling. In addition, the character is a deft lockpicker and treasure hunter. Add in a few basic locate spells, and a sensory foil spell or two to help make up for a sub-optimal sneak, and the character becomes one of the best scroungers in the wasteland!
Last edited by Kkat on Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by TyrannisUmbra » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:45 pm

Kkat wrote:Thank you for voicing your concerns. You do have a some good points. However, some of your points seem to come largely from an extremely different viewpoint of what spellcasters should be and the role they should be able to play as characters.
I was going to dissect every point in your post, but I've decided to just take the points I feel bother me the most, then try to clarify my position outside the context of a response to yours.
Kkat wrote:An average dedicated spellcaster should look like Velvet Remedy. Velvet Remedy has less than a dozen spells. (So she has never taken Additional Spell Count.) Medical is her primary skill set, and she has a small number of spells in Illusion and Defense. (So she has taken Additional Vocation twice.) She has shown herself to have Expert level spells in her primary and at least advanced in the others. (With the alteration of the Advanced Spells and Expert Spells perks, a single taking of each of these perks is all that is required to duplicate that level of casting.) As such, Velvet Remedy's character build requires four magical perks. We can safely assume she spend at least four more on optional magic-enhancing perks (Powerful Caster, Versatile Caster, and/or Spell Alacrity). That still leaves her with over half her pre-epic perks available for non-magic perks. We know she took at least a few, as she had Shotgun Surgeon and Master Trader, amongst others.
I'm sorry, but Velvet Remedy is not a dedicated spellcaster. She is a medic that uses spells to assist her, and she learned more types of spell out of necessity rather than desire. She did not study magic, she studied medicine. Velvet Remedy is a perfect example of an average unicorn who does not focus on her spellcasting, but instead treats it as a tool to use to assist her own field of focus, which does not lie in spellcasting. I cannot stress this enough. Velvet Remedy is not a good example for what a dedicated caster should be.
Kkat wrote:The perks Powerful Caster and Versatile Caster are akin to Extra SPECIAL (the "Intense Training" perk) specific for unicorns. Since Potency and Versatility are designed to cap a 10 (like any SPECIAL, and the maximum you can start with is 5, then these perks need to have a maximum of 5 ranks.
Then the magic stats need to cap at 5 and be balanced as such, because SPECIAL stats cap at 10.
Kkat wrote:A character in Fallout: Equestria starts with 5's in all SPECIALS and is given 5 more points to spend. A player building a melee fighter will almost certainly put a good number of those points into Strength and probably Endurance. Someone building a sniper will pour most of those into Agility and Perception. Therefore, it is reasonably expected that anyone creating a unicorn with the intention of focusing on spellcasting will put four of those 5 points into Endurance and Intelligence, (spending the last point, plus any gained by lowering stats, to flesh out the character's SPECIALS in other areas). Putting two points into each gives the character an Endurance of 7 and an Intelligence of 7. And (7 / 2, round up) = 4.

This means that the average beginning "dedicated" spellcaster is expected to have an average Potency and Versatility of 4. Spells are designed focusing on what a Potency 4, Versatility 4 character could do, and with an eye out for limiting how powerful the spell could get in the hooves of a munchkin with 10 Potency or Versatility.

It is expected that a truly "dedicated" spellcaster could possibly reach Potency or Versatility 10, but that no PC caster will ever reach both.
This is a flawed assumption. Stats in Fallout do not work like that. a 5 is "average", a 7 is "above average", and a 10 is "Excellent". Spells should be based on the idea that you have an average of 5 END and 5 INT -- lower is below average, above is above average. If you have 3 POT, your spells should be able to produce a meaningful effect. Not a powerful one, but a meaningful one.
Kkat wrote:I am currently playtesting this magic system in a game that gives perks every other level. My unicorn is a dedicated spellcaster who will probably spend two thirds of her perks on spellcasting. She has started out with a an amazing 5 Versatility, 4 Potency and will be taking a rank in Powerful Caster at some point. She is a front-line combatant whose tagged skills are Battle Saddles, Repair and Science. By throwing a lot of skill points into Medicine, she has an average skill level of 50 across her tagged skills and Medicine. She is skilled in Imbuing spells which she uses to boost her damage output and enhance the fighting capabilities of other party members, as well as having a few Medical spells which have made her the party healer.

And she is fun to play.
Your unicorn is not a dedicated caster. She is a battle mage. You do not use spells as your focus, you use spells as a supplement to augment your fighter build.
Also, battle saddles need to be nerfed. Linking two average weapons on a battle saddle will allow you to kill any enemy you're likely to face in a single round, with absolutely no penalty. (Varmint Rifle, 18+2d10, Link two of them together and you suddenly have 36+4d10 for the same AP cost as firing the single weapon, at no penalty. You can fire twice per turn -- 72+8d10 with no perks factored in. This kind of damage is more than enough to instantly kill a mid-level character in a single turn. If you factor in perks, there are multiple low level perks that increase gun damage by 1d10 each, meaning you can easily get another 2-5 d10 added on per gun, giving you an absurd 4d10 to 20d10 extra damage on top of that. It gets to absurd levels.)

My stance:
I'm running a unicorn who is deathly afraid of the idea of killing other ponies. She is a versatile caster who focuses on avoiding combat in the best case, avoiding damage in a worse case. She uses her spells to assist her allies in this same manner. I do not play a combat caster, I play a support caster, and the majority of the time I feel like a dead weight because I can't contribute anything meaningful to the party. I have pretty much been reduced to being the party's flashlight, and maybe once every 10 sessions having a meaningful chance to take the heat off a party member. I have a rediculous number of spells, but I can't use most of them because of the horrible restricted limit on number of spell casts per turn. I have two spells which will be more meaningful to cast in every other possible situation, so those are the only things I can realistically cast. Being a high VER, low POT caster is an exercise in futility. I can legitimately say I have seriously considered asking the GM to kill my character and let me re-roll a new one. The only thing holding me back is the fact that I already have a huge investment in my character's development and relationships with the party.

Your entire system seems to be focused on the idea of the only viable unicorn builds being a battle-mage who only uses spells when necessary, or a One Trick Pony unicorn who gets rediculous POT modifiers on a single spell through high levels of Mighty Spell. You are not having problems with your character because you're not playing a character that lies outside of those archetypes. Play any other kind of caster, and you will see clearly that there is a problem with the system that needs to be rectified. To put it simply, two people who have not explored the problem cases is not enough to design a good, balanced system that is above all else, fun. As it stands, the only people who play a unicorn are those who don't know how bad it is, those who only want to play the one specific archetype that works, or those who want to play a gimped character.

The current system does not support character diversity. Instead it punishes anyone who wants to deviate from the "norm", and forces you to either play a specific way or fail miserably. As anyone in my unicorn's group can tell you, I am not out to make my character stronger. I've turned down offers from the GM to let me have an easier time, and I make my own obstacles to overcome before I allow my character to improve in a way that I as a player desperately want. I even considered traits at character creation for their negative qualities rather than their positive ones. I'm not advocating strong casters, I'm advocating balanced casters. As it stands, you cannot expect a reasonable output from spells that matches the effort you put into them, and therein lies the heart of the issue.
Primary IRC nicks: TyrannisUmbra, Silver_Wing
Current PNP characters: <Non-FoE Only>

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Kkat
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Re: Fixing Magic

Post by Kkat » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:00 pm

TyrannisUmbra wrote:I was going to dissect every point in your post...
And I had the urge to do the same with yours. However, while feedback and suggestions are always welcome, a designer must understand that some individuals will be looking for something significantly different or even entirely alien to the designer's intention. In such a case, it is better for the designer's project (and sanity) to stop trying either argue with or please those individuals.

I can feel your frustration. It hurts to know that someone is having so much trouble with the system. I agree the system needs a lot more playtesting. But as far as I can tell, your frustration comes from your expectations of what spellcasting in a game should be (which are not applicable to the game we are creating), and possibly a different definition of fun. So instead, I think it is far better to simply agree to disagree. I encourage you to build your own system for magic as you will not ever be pleased with the one we are creating. Alternatively, have you tried Sunrise's original system? Maybe that will be more to your liking.

Thank you. Have a nice day, and enjoy playing Fallout: Equestria.
Last edited by Kkat on Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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