Alternate Core Documents

A place to discuss any PnP (Pen and Paper) role-playing games you are working on.
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Ghostpony
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by Ghostpony » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:23 pm

Dance_Explosion wrote:I have to ask then, What makes the earth pony style so damn special that only they can use it? Martial arts in the setting are something only prescribed to the zebra in canon, and besides earth pony's do not need MORE perks that only they can take.

Also not everything has to be this nebular "EP magic" so far an earth pony can have their "Magic" do absolutely anything since it can just be what every they want. EP are currently the equivalent to the humans from DnD, they might not get much fancy racial unique things, but they get lots of versatility. Only EP DO get lots, and in fact more, unique things then any other two races combined.
Did you read the style though including the notes at the end? It is an internalization of there magic. An explanation I might add that is why only EP's are supposed to get cybernetics. Aslo did you read what it costs the an EP to follow the Iron Hoof style? Its something I think few EP players will do lightly as it pretty much ties up all the perks they are going to take for at a number of levels do to the stat requirements.

As for Cannon all I can say is if you want to keep things to just what is in Kkat's base story your looking at some pretty limited things. A lot of the unicorn spells are never used in that story for example. Kkat wrote a great story but its just one slice of whats out there. Little Pip's adventure did not cover the span of even a year in the Wasteland. I would also point out that your own martial arts sheet has non cannon styles on it making me wonder why you're arguing this.

And no not everything has to be nebular EP magic. On the other hoof when I thought out the style I was asking myself what would the EP who are creative souls done to defend them selves against the aggression of unicorns and pegasi before the 3 tribes joined together. The Iron Hoof style is my head cannon on what the EP's might have come up with over time in an effort to have some chance of meeting the other 2 tribes on something resembling even ground.


I am looking for constructive criticism on the mechanics. Not a need to defend martial arts in general or an EQ specific art.

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Ghostpony
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by Ghostpony » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:36 pm

Viewing_Glass wrote:Another interesting thought to put up for general discussion:

Secondary effects (such as the paralysis of a Lightning Bolt Spell, an Elemental Mod triggering, poison, etc) should not be applied if the person dealing the damage does not get through the target's DT.
In general I agree,. however a little GM discretion should be applied. As an example all metal armor shouldn't have much stopping power against lightening. If your hit with a flamer depending on the type of fuel the GM rules is being used you could still be set aflame even in power armor. Sure your not taking the damage but your a walking ignition point until the gelled fuel burns out or your extinguished.

Elemental effects really have a lot of potential circumstantial modifiers. As an engineer I should think your aware of even more than I am VG. :pinkiehappy:

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Viewing_Glass
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by Viewing_Glass » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:10 pm

Oh yeah. And the GM's leeway on that is just that: Up to the GM. However, some general rules regarding what will and won't effect an opponent based on whether or not they get through DT would be good. I would make it more based around physics... but I know not everyone enjoys engineering and physics (and the associated math) as much as I do. Heh.

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Mister_Clacky
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by Mister_Clacky » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:42 pm

Quick thing on size categories.

Size: If the attacker and defender are different size categories, subtract the attacker’s size category from the defender’s and multiply the difference by 15% to get the bonus or penalty.

Can we put the formula in there bold and obvious? (Defender-Attacker=X) It goes back to those confusing word problems in elementary school. Having "attacker from defender" right there in front of me made me just start doing Defender - Attacker, which is the opposite of what was intended. Sure, I figured it out when things came up wrong, but clarity is the goal. I figure if I could mess it up, a not insignificant portion of readers might as well.
War is cruelty, and none can make it gentle. ~Gilbert Parker

Fallout: Equestria - Homecoming

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Dance_Explosion
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by Dance_Explosion » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:57 pm

Well ghost, my last post really wasn't all that much to do with your perks, and more to do with the drastic racial perk discrepancy we have on the list.

But i have to say that [assuming perks we have on the list would be the same for the three tribes] the Earth ponies would have been the best martial types then already, they can make better equipment, and do better with weapons they have anyway. Also based on the population you see in the show, and the fact it was implied that the Earth ponies grew more food in the episode about the tribes, they probably had more ponies, generally speaking i think they would have had larger groups/armies, and would be generally tougher/stronger and be able to slug it out better in prolonged fights. The unicorns and Pegasis ponies would have better specialists with flying forces like the wonderbolts [or equivalent] and the unicorns with some powerful wizards with great and powerful spells [or equivalent], but thats really not all that important to the topic i guess :derpytongue2:

Now anyway on your martial arts perks.

I think you need to make them either all racial only, or non racial only, Zebra bodies are different from earth ponies just like they are from unicorns, i honestly don't see a need for martial arts as anything more then filling out zebra's more, and they really need it. Nine out of ten times gun beats spear anyway that's why around 1/3rd of all perks seem to be associated with unarmed/melee already [giving credit to Dime here :rainbowwild: ] so adding more perks should be cut down as much as we can.

okay now lets get down to numbers here, if i am reading it right this is what you get for all the perks into fallen ceaser style.

+15 sneak, +15 unarmed, +15% to critical hits with bare hoof/shod hoof, +10 damage and -10 to targets DT, Add Agility to damage along with strength, Unarmed attacks now have a chance to paralyze your target gets END -2 check, for 5 turns (does not stack with paralyzing hoof) [had to Copy pasta i find this mechanic a little complicated], armor piercing for DR [WOW], crippeling, and double stats to bare hoof attacks.

Okay now i have to say that you should cut the perks down from 10 plus a trait [or a quest perk] to about 5, and loose the need for the trait and quest perk. I personally think that the need for a level 20 character to be around just for the option to exist for the player is a bit of a problem, it creates the need for more level 20 NPC's to be just around, and make it harder for a player to feel that their character is all that needed, to stop the bandits, save the prince, or fight off the abomination to save the town, since their master could just do it better and faster, now i know real life and the IC dosn't work that way, but i have had problems myself in campaigns were high level NPC's were common, since the question of "why do you want me to do it? there is much better people around to do it!" can really hurt a game. Also it gives the same issue that cyber pony gives were a player can't level up and take the perk since the NPC they need is not around.

Now if you cut the perks down to 5, it means the tree needs to be less, frankly, OP. the first three perks give almost as much skill boost as the skill boost perks, and the same critical bonus as Ninja gives, a level 20 perk. granted its limited to bare hoofs but still at level 4 its possible to have a 25% critical hit chance with their main weapon, which they always have and is free. And the DR reduction is going to have to go, only a high level Monster perk grants that and players are not allowed to have it [also as a note, Kkat has expressed a desire to keep DR as the 'best' defense to keep power armor worthwhile]. i would also say get rid of the "like paralyzing hoof" effect since its not as good, and is un needed [Xenith was noted as having paralyzing hoof anyway]

Now i DO like the idea of adding in the AGIL for damage, and the level 20 of the tree is great i love it.

+15 sneak, +15 unarmed, +10% to critical hits with bare hoof/shod hoof, +10 damage and -5 to targets DT, Add Agility to damage along with strength, , crippeling, and double stats to bare hoof attacks.

level 4 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 8 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed grants Armor piecing [light]
level 12: +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 16: +10% critical hit chance Add Agility to damage
level 20: Add Crippling effect to bare hoof's and double stat bonus to damage.

What do you think about this then? the bonus it gives is still very good, and leaves room to take some of the existing unarmed/melee perks to fill it out more, and it keeps a more even perk to level distribution. As a player and DM i really just can't see a player wanting to invest more then half of their perks into one thing like unarmed since it would to make then great at hitting people at the expense of being able to do much else that needs perks. I also think you need to lower the pre reqs a little as demanding 100 unarmed at level 10 is a little rough and again, is at the expense of the player being able to lock pick, hack, sneak, or speech is a little rough.

Let me know what you think? if we combine our lists and idea's i think we can work out some stuff that will make the game better, and that's what we both want anyway :twilightsmile:

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Dimestream
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by Dimestream » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:25 pm

Dance_Explosion wrote:
level 4 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 8 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed grants Armor piecing [light]
level 12: +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 16: +10% critical hit chance Add Agility to damage
level 20: Add Crippling effect to bare hoof's and double stat bonus to damage.
I think this is great for a couple of reasons (as always). :twilightblush: Despite my initial reservations about the stages each being better than any equivalent skill-up perk, this has potential.

* First, this cuts down the sheer number of perks you'd have to take to be any kind of good, as well as shortening the 'well, gee, with only a perk or two into this, I really suck' period. Second, it doesn't have to be a character-defining expenditure of perks. Again with Xenith, she knew a martial art. But she was an alchemist. Same with skill points; locking a player down into one and only one skill early on is boring, and makes them too single-purpose to be of any help to the group. :fluttercry:

* Second, this cuts down the boggling amount of power you'd have to get out of the perk chain for it to be worth fully HALF of the perks you'd get in a normal game. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons, and we're not trying to play a Fighter. Thus we don't need half or 3/4 of our perks sunk into 'hit hard with sword' or hoof or whatever. :twilightangry2:

* Third, this level of expenditure DOES feel like it's significant, and will be a nice boost every time you get a new rank of it, without it being the only perks you can take. It's rewarding at every stage, and having all of it makes it pretty kick-flank. :rainbowdetermined2: Granted, I think a staggering +10% to critically hit is nuts, and should be reduced to at most +5% (at which point it still beats out, and stacks with, Finesse). :derpyderp1:

The adding Agility to bare hoof damage is excellent, both mechanically and flavor-wise, as is the 2x bonus at level 20. But it needs clarified: Is that both Strength AND Agility getting multiplied by two? :rainbowhuh:

There's my two cents again. Despite my logic that zebras don't need more stuff, this is actually turning out to be a ruleset I might use myself, as an optional addition. :trixieshiftright:

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TyrannisUmbra
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by TyrannisUmbra » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:19 am

Dance_Explosion wrote:level 4 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 8 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed grants Armor piecing [light]
level 12: +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 16: +10% critical hit chance Add Agility to damage
level 20: Add Crippling effect to bare hoof's and double stat bonus to damage.
Swap second and third tier around. Armor piercing in general comes into play around Lv12-16, and is a little too good for Lv8. Not to mention, +5 damage is almost always strictly weaker than armor piercing. Think of it as, Armor piercing is essentially the piercing value as bonus damage -- considering most enemies will have more than 10DT and AP[L] cuts that in half, AP[L] is the equivalent of more than +5 damage, usually.
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uSea
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by uSea » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:53 am

TyrannisUmbra wrote:Swap second and third tier around. Armor piercing in general comes into play around Lv12-16, and is a little too good for Lv8. Not to mention, +5 damage is almost always strictly weaker than armor piercing. Think of it as, Armor piercing is essentially the piercing value as bonus damage -- considering most enemies will have more than 10DT and AP[L] cuts that in half, AP[L] is the equivalent of more than +5 damage, usually.
Actually armor piercing [light] is a flat -5 to the target's DT. You're thinking of the regular non-light version, which halves target DT.

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TyrannisUmbra
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by TyrannisUmbra » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:12 pm

uSea wrote:Actually armor piercing [light] is a flat -5 to the target's DT. You're thinking of the regular non-light version, which halves target DT.
Bleh. Has it always been that way? I swear there was only Light and Heavy! In that case, I could see that being in that order.
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Viewing_Glass
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Re: Alternate Core Documents

Post by Viewing_Glass » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:57 pm

Dance_Explosion wrote:level 4 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 8 : +5 sneak +5 unarmed grants Armor piecing [light]
level 12: +5 sneak +5 unarmed +5 damage
level 16: +10% critical hit chance Add Agility to damage
level 20: Add Crippling effect to bare hoof's and double stat bonus to damage.
How about, instead of Armor Piercing [Light] it becomes 'Target's DT is reduced by 5'? You can still swap it (as reducing DT is stronger, strictly speaking, than armor piercing of any rank), it would stack with piercing hoof (explaining why Xenith was able to damage Steel Rangers with her bare hooves) and just makes the martial art really attractive.

So, it would look like this:

Fallen Caesar Style:
  • Level 4 : +5 sneak, +5 unarmed, +5 to unarmed damage
  • Level 8 : +5 sneak, +5 unarmed, +5 to unarmed damage
  • level 12: +5 sneak, +5 unarmed, Target's DT is reduced by 5
  • level 16: +10% critical hit chance, Add Agility to damage
  • level 20: Add Crippling effect to bare hoof's and double stat bonus to damage

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