Alternate Core Documents

[Viewing_Glass]

The existence of rules for shattering a horn have caused several people to suggest to me that there must also be rules for severing a limb. The argument has generally been that without rules for severing a limb, people will assume the rules for shattering a horn automatically apply, or will otherwise come up with rules that will make this too easy. I have privately discussed few ideas for suitably rules, but I am hesitant to implement any rule that gives a mechanic to sever a limb since the head is considered a limb, making any such rule an instant-death rule.

Opinions?

Unfortunately, severing a head comes as baseline canon to the story (Steelhooves)... along with severing limbs (Velvet). The biggest issue is the fact that we wanted a way to seperate a shattered horns from a crippled horn.

All that has to happen is changing the rule on Shattering Horns to 'A horn is extremely resilient and next to impossible to destroy. Only through several hours, if not days of constant trauma can it be removed (such as when Silver Bell sawed off her own horn).'

[Palm]

No problem with losing limbs, since there is several ways to fight the issue including, but not limited to, instant surgery, hydra, cybertech. From a game design perspective it strikes to me as a good example of an ailment, it adds narriativ, it can serve as severe damage without outright killing a character, and it can be cured using several different methods.

Chopping of the head seems different. Depends on what type of game you want. From a dramatic and tactical perspective, I think a severed head is just the narriative of an attack that would otherwise kill you when it hits your head, or perhaps a critical hit that kills you, since it leaves you in an unressurectable state.

[Kkat]

I am leery of limb severing altogether as a thing because it comes really really close to 'and now you can't play your character any more'.

I agree.

Unfortunately, severing a head comes as baseline canon to the story (Steelhooves)... along with severing limbs (Velvet). The biggest issue is the fact that we wanted a way to seperate a shattered horns from a crippled horn.

All that has to happen is changing the rule on Shattering Horns to 'A horn is extremely resilient and next to impossible to destroy. Only through several hours, if not days of constant trauma can it be removed (such as when Silver Bell sawed off her own horn).'

Actually, that sounds like a really bad idea. As horrible as what Silver Bell did to herself is, it doesn't need to be made worse by designing a mechanic that transforms it into something out of Cupcakes. And worse, this idea encourages PCs to engage in abhorrent behavior. Turning the only method of non-lethally disarming a hostile unicorn or alicorn into a multi-hour (or worse, multi-day) act of grueling torture is, on a thematic level, pretty repulsive.

Let's very much not do that.

(Plus, I understand where the suggestion is coming from... and I'm sensing a severe double-standard. "We absolutely need mechanics that allow us to cripple a player's pegasus character out of all her racial perks, but I don't want it to be possible to cripple my unicorn out of all of her racial perks!" No, it should be equally possible, and equally very hard, to do both.)

No problem with losing limbs, since there is several ways to fight the issue including, but not limited to, instant surgery, hydra, cybertech. From a game design perspective it strikes to me as a good example of an ailment, it adds narriativ, it can serve as severe damage without outright killing a character, and it can be cured using several different methods.

Chopping of the head seems different. Depends on what type of game you want. From a dramatic and tactical perspective, I think a severed head is just the narriative of an attack that would otherwise kill you when it hits your head, or perhaps a critical hit that kills you, since it leaves you in an unressurectable state.

There is a level at which I very much like that.

I do recognize that severed limbs is both canon to the source material and of dramatic value within the game. The issue, of course, is that any limb-severing mechanic can be applied to the head. And a severed head means dead. The character wouldn't even get the "dying" time to be saved. If there is a mechanic, it is possible to tailor a character or monster to maximize the chance of succeeding with that mechanic. As Thanqol points out, that's just unfun in a very major way if a GM uses that to kill off your character. And it's not much less awful in the hands of a player.

I'm still convinced the best way to handle severing limbs is to not introduce a mechanic that allows it, and merely allude to the possibility (as we currently do).

However, if we need to, perhaps there is a way to make severing a head an exception to severing limbs?

[TyrannisUmbra]

To be honest, severing heads should definitely still be a thing that can happen.

iirc a few games I've been in have stuck with the rule that to outright sever a limb requires crippling a limb with a weapon that deals bonus limb damage (with or without optional damage/crit requirements), whereas mangling/ruining limbs can be done with any weapon, which wouldn't outright cut a limb off but would likely result in permanent damage/disability. Mangling a limb would be from excessive "overkill" damage to a crippled limb by attacks /after/ the attack that already crippled it.

[SilverlightPony]

I'm torn between "make the head an exception" and "leave the whole mess up to GM house-rules". Not having played in a game using the core rules in some time, though, I feel a bit out of touch with how the game flows with them.

[Viewing_Glass]

(Plus, I understand where the suggestion is coming from... and I'm sensing a severe double-standard. "We absolutely need mechanics that allow us to cripple a player's pegasus character out of all her racial perks, but I don't want it to be possible to cripple my unicorn out of all of her racial perks!" No, it should be equally possible, and equally very hard, to do both.)

However, if we need to, perhaps there is a way to make severing a head an exception to severing limbs?

Really Kkat?

No, the reason that this suggestion came about was simply because you have it noted, mechanically, that it is incredibly difficult to cripple a horn. In fact, its the only body part that starts the game with DR. So, you currently have a catch-22: Limbs are less hardy than horns, but should be equally as difficult to remove? What?

Do I think that crippling limbs should be as powerful as it is? No. Unfortunately:

• Crippling a pegasus's wing is the ONLY way to bring a pegasus out of the air for a non-flier.

The moment that we have a reliable way for Earth Ponies and Unicorns to at least force a pegasus to drop to fight them that doesn't involve killing the pegasus or dropping them unconscious, I'll be very receptive toward changing/removing crippling, and its counterpart, severing, limbs from the game. Lord knows as a GM I don't want to do that to a player, however, raiders are a thing...

On the topic of curing severed limbs...

No problem with losing limbs, since there is several ways to fight the issue including, but not limited to, instant surgery, hydra, cybertech. From a game design perspective it strikes to me as a good example of an ailment, it adds narriativ, it can serve as severe damage without outright killing a character, and it can be cured using several different methods.

Actually, no. Surgery isn't 'instant' and, in fact, there are no rules for it (which is another thing we should add). Hydra only heals a crippled limb, it doesn't restore a severed limb, and cybertech, outside of earth ponies, can have some nasty, nasty side effects. In addition, cybernetics and alchemy should always be a choice that the player has. If you force cybernetics at the cost of continuing to play a character... that's just a recipe for resentment.

Currently, the only rules for restoring a severed limb (Unless I missed one):

• Expert Regeneration (Level 14, minimum, if you are lucky the Unicorn has that spell)
• Kiss of the Phoenix (Need a zebra with at least 80 Survival that created it to reattach a severed limb)

TL;DR:

Rules for shattering horns, as we all agree, opened a door to asking how limbs are severed. There are only a couple ways to actually restore a severed limb... which means any rule for severing a limb/shattering a horn should be extremely difficult to perform. Of course, I wouldn't be pointing all this out if I hadn't, with the assistance of Night Light, already created rules for severing limbs and fixing it with the medicine skill. Might not be what we eventually settle on, but it works as a good spring board.

[Seraph-Colak]

I think we're forgetting that on top of cybernetics there ARE spells designed for healing severed limbs. As far as mechanics for severing limbs I think that a certain level of damage above what is required to cripple the limb would remove it, maybe triple the damage? I would also assume it would simply make the penalties for a crippled limb permanent until a cybernetic replacement or powerful healing spell can recover the limb.

[Thanqol]

I'm still convinced the best way to handle severing limbs is to not introduce a mechanic that allows it, and merely allude to the possibility (as we currently do).

I vote this. It shouldn't be part of standard gameplay in the same way we don't need detailed rules for what happens if you're captured by Raiders. And if we need mechanics for it we can honestly just go with 'the limb is permanently Crippled'.

[Kkat]

No, the reason that this suggestion came about was simply because you have it noted, mechanically, that it is incredibly difficult to cripple a horn. In fact, its the only body part that starts the game with DR. So, you currently have a catch-22: Limbs are less hardy than horns, but should be equally as difficult to remove? What?

That's not what I said. To reiterate: it should be very hard to completely strip a character of their racial abilities and perks. And you shouldn't be so gung-ho to try to screw over players of pegasi while fiercely protecting players of unicorns from the same fate.

As it is, horns are much hardier, and are far more difficult to hit. Furthermore, shattering is exceptionally difficult and, due to requiring a critical hit, not reliable. However, pegasi have two wings, both of which must be crippled to remove all flight, and repairing crippled limbs is far easier than repairing a shattered horn. It's not equal, true. But I'm hoping it doesn't need too much more work.

Do I think that crippling limbs should be as powerful as it is? No. Unfortunately:

• Crippling a pegasus's wing is the ONLY way to bring a pegasus out of the air for a non-flier.

That is not as strong an argument as you seem to think it is. You don't need to bring a pegasus out of the air. This is a game with guns and spells. The only people who cannot fight at range are the people who choose not to. So the unarmed combatant can't charge up to the pegasus... boo hoo. That isn't because flight is amazing, it's because no-range combat styles are inherently as inferior as they should be. Being able to stay at range isn't an ungodly superpower. And it doesn't make the pegasus immune from attack.

Staying at range isn't something unique to pegasi. Forget teleport, which makes flight downright quaint, a unicorn can accomplish the same thing with a shield -- a spell which can be recast the moment it goes down and can be reshaped to allow firing through. That doesn't mean that we need to make shattering horns easy so we can obliterate that inconvenient magic keeping the melee fighter from reaching her. Hell, in many cases, good tactical positioning can keep any character at range.

Rules for shattering horns, as we all agree, opened a door to asking how limbs are severed. There are only a couple ways to actually restore a severed limb... which means any rule for severing a limb/shattering a horn should be extremely difficult to perform. Of course, I wouldn't be pointing all this out if I hadn't, with the assistance of Night Light, already created rules for severing limbs and fixing it with the medicine skill. Might not be what we eventually settle on, but it works as a good spring board.

I've talked with Night Light as well (in fact, we've already come up with better rules). However, all of these rules still suffer the same issue that all limb-severing rules suffer: allowing severing of the head means allowing an instant-character-kill mechanic. Until that issue is resolved, I believe these rules are nonviable.

[Ghostpony]

If you make taking a head off take as much damage as it would to kill the target, does it mater that it kills them?