New earth pony perks

[icekatze]

hi hi

I apologize as well if I've been confrontational as well, I know it isn't my place to criticize. I'm only trying to speak in the abstract here, in a general game theory sense.

[vadram]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... HLUE#gid=6

a EP support that i made up in about 1h using only kkat perks, traits, rules and equipment

it could be even more optimized if using specialized ammo
and just for reference sake 1 healing potion heals 20+10d10. it can go up to 20+14d10 if you take 40 points from BS and add them to Medicine.
And this is just a lvl 6 char.

Because of the extra perks and the fact that they can easily take egghead at lvl1 instead of 4 (and not sacrifice any other perk) they have the best scaling in the game, having at least 6 extra skill points more than any other race that take egghead at 4 and 29*2=58 skill points more by lvl 30. They can max out heal by 4, and with just one rank of healing of mother earth they heal 20+12d10 for each healing potion.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

icekatze: Your points are well-made. I admit my reaction may not have been due entirely to your tone and more to you being right on so many counts.

vadram: First, your gdocs link doesn't work because you've still got the doc permissions set up not to let anyone else in. You make some good points, though.

So, assuming that EPs are not, in fact, blatantly UP let me propose something else: the cybernetic perks don't quite "work" as-is, IMO. Here's why:

1. As icekatze pointed out, there's not a whole lot canonically to support that only EPs can get such extensive modifications. Heck, Red Eye's army in FOE has a cyborg dragon as an ally during the Battle of the Cathedral, and I believe it's mentioned in the epilogue/afterwords that Calamity has his wings cybernetically reinforced due to the repeated injuries they suffer during the course of FOE. And that's not even taking into account all the various sidefics that have non-EP characters with pretty significant cybernetics.

2. They come with their own drawbacks. This just doesn't feel right to me, the idea behind perks is that they're beneficial, not a trade-off.

3. Getting parts of your body replaced voluntarily might be something that a player would have a hard time justifying IC.

4. They require more work from the GM to work in, and they may not always fit into what a GM has in mind for their setting. Remember, cybernetics are very rare and the GM basically needs to provide a fully stocked lab somewhere. If they're setting their campaign in a region that wasn't very built up during the war, it can be hard to justify the existence of such a place and the GM may feel like it would mess with the tone they're going for. Even if such a facility is available getting access to it and the parts is likely not going to be easy. One of my current GMs has even said he considers cybernetics as quest perks in a way, due to how much work is required to get them.

My proposal is that some new perks get devised as EP racials, are cybernetics get separated into their own "thing" to be used by all races as GMs and players want. Does that make more sense?

[NitoKa]

I fully agree with many of the points here. I play Earthponies a lot. When I started playing, I made an earthpony for multiple reasons, one of which was simplicity. Earthponies didn't have the extra rules like the other races available to me during the campaign and I was fine for that as I was a new player. But looking now back and compairitively. Earthponies, even in mad modd, don't have much of a capacity to do anything other than either be BIG BEEFY TANKS (Which is totally gone if you have an alicorn in your party) Or be limited down to support. Now i'm not saying support is bad, everyone needs a healer or something (Oh wait unicorns do that better), all I'm saying is that...

Let's take another game, different system. Pathfinder. Say... I want to be a Dwarf. Dwarves are more suited for fighting and combative roles. But something I noticed looking over them, they have options for being magic based classes.

Now that might not relate at all. But what I mean is. We should not restrict a race to an archetype. A pegasus with a lot of flight stuff does not automatically make them your sniper or main gunner. A unicorn with a lot of magic stuff does not make them your healer or your damage dealer necessarily (Because of how diverse magic is and flight tricks too for that matter).

Cybernetics are cool, but as mentioned, have drawbacks, not good for perks, most the perks I hate in Mad Modd's have a drawback. Anyways, they take a while to get, and most campaigns don't have them. Now I understand why Kkat put them in there, same reason the way ghoul degradation is pretty much null and void in most campaigns, she planned for most campaigns to take place post Sunshine and Rainbows, when the water was all purified and the land was the same. Cybernetics would be MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to come across a year or two after the wasteland was healed.

So in conclusion through my random rambling. Earthponies need something special to them, one that doesn't force them into a role. (To be fair I would ask the same of zebras but it ain't gonna happen soon, they still gonna be shamans and potion makers)

[TyrannisUmbra]

Cybernetics and Alchemy are both in the same boat. They're 'racial' systems that have no right being racial systems. Sure, EPs might be better suited to having cybernetics, and Zebras might have a better understanding of alchemy, but that's not something that precludes other races from participating in them. They should have their own bonuses, yes, but not exclusivity.

Something worth noting though, is that even if you remove all cybernetics perks from EPs, they still have the most racial perks in the game. So adding new ones is a slippery slope. Some of them could use improvement, yes, but that's not a racial issue, that's a dud perk issue, which is something ALL races have, and should have taken care of equally.

To look at what we have now, the free perks system is damn powerful. Having free perks allows you to take more of the lower level perks that you WANT to take, but can't because of the higher level perks being more important. And believe me, it may sound small, but having that extra freedom is leaps and bounds over the other races, because not only do they get less perks, they get 'filler' perks they have to take in order to make their racial worth using, which lowers the number of 'open' perk slots they have.

So if we were to add a completely new system, it would have to replace the free perks, not add to them.

I do have some decent ideas for this, though. Note: The following system would completely negate the need for the Random perk (Though I guess since this is an EP thing, it wouldn't help Zebras be Pinkie Pie).

At character creation, Earth Ponies choose one SPECIAL stat or Skill to be their Earth Pony Specialization. When performing acts that utilize their Specialization, they get special, active bonuses they can call upon to make them better able to use that one skill or stat, in a variety of different ways! At Lv1 and every 5 levels thereafter (6, 11, 16, 21, 26), they can choose one ability from a list of abilities for their chosen SPECIAL or skill to add to their character. Generally these abilities are useable at will -- though some specific ones may have restrictions on when or how many times you can use them.

Obviously this would require suggestions for active abilities to give to Earth Ponies. Some of the existing perks are excellent starting points, and can be easily moved from perks to specialization bonuses (Healing Power of Mother Earth and Bombermare easily come to mind!), but there will need to be a /lot/ of filling in abilities.

As a guideline, some examples of possible abilities are as follows:

Earth Sense (Perception) - Your connection with the earth gives you a greater awareness. You can call upon this ability any time you are standing on natural ground which is untouched by any unnatural construction. You can immediately roll a Perception check at a +2 bonus to detect other living beings within (PER*10) yards, so long as they are also standing on natural ground. This ability can be used any number of times, but may only be used once for each situation.

It's All A Matter Of Skill (Luck) - Whenever you fail a skill check by a difference of 15 or less, or a SPECIAL check by a difference of 1, you may use this ability. The failed skill or SPECIAL check instead acts as if you had succeeded by meeting your roll (ie, 0 degrees of success). This ability can only be used 3 times per game session.

Note that both of these are active use abilities, meaning they're not passive bonuses, but you have to think and choose when you want to use them.

I've also been toying with something similar for Zebras, which would be their Tribal Affinity, in which they choose the tribe they hail from at character creation, and gain abilities as the game progresses based on their specific tribe. So one tribe would have Shamanism as its bonus, one tribe would have unarmed combat abilities similar to Fallen Caesar style, one tribe would have unique Alchemy bonuses, and one tribe would have some special luck bonuses, being 'cursed' by the stars, and all.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

I went through and counted up the perks in Sunrise. Discounting all cyberpony perks, EPs have 17 racial perks. Now, they do easily outstrip zebras like that but zebras being bad at everything but alchemy is a whole different issue altogether. Here's how they stack up vs. the other widely-played races.

Racial perks in Sunrise by race, not including Cyberpony perks:
Earth ponies: 17
Griffins: 19
Pegasi: 18 (not including Flight 1 but including Tricks)
Unicorns: 19

While they wouldn't be terribly behind in sheer number of racial perks, they would not be ahead either if cyberpony perks were removed. There's also the issue that cyberpony perks make up all the earth pony late game racials. Their highest level racial perk that isn't cybernetics based? Years of Applebucking (admittedly a very nice perk) at lvl 12. That's their only lvl 12 racial perk that isn't cyberpony based, and no more come after.

Granted, late game perks are rather sparse, but most other races/species have at least two or three past lvl 12. Thankfully, that works out very nicely. If the cyberpony stuff gets split into its own thing, just add two or three lvl 14+ EP perks and you're good. Nothing much else needs to change with that.

While the active abilities thing sounds interesting, I think I prefer the passive approach. The passives we've got now are often fairly broad in their use, which is nice when their abilities actually are a bonus. Other than that, it kinda *is* canon at this point in MLP lore that EPs are around for their muscle, to an extent. Having a few perks reflect that (other than Strong Back) would be nice.

[TyrannisUmbra]

Hmmm, they must have added some extra perks for the other races (or removed some EP perks?) while I wasn't looking. I did the counting myself not long ago, because I was doing my own racial perks enhancement project, and that was a big thing I noticed.

And, if you want EPs to be improved, the answer is not with passive boosts. They're already very good statistically, and more passive bonuses on top of that would make them horrendously overpowered (While still people will complain because they don't get to do anything 'cool'. That's the key.)

Active abilities are the key to engaging gameplay. The reason Magic and Tricks are fun to play with is because you're actvely using your race's abilities rather than having a passive boost.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

I suppose. What about something similar to the pegasus "trick system", only basing it off STR primarily, maybe with some AGI or END thrown in?

[TyrannisUmbra]

Basing a racial system off specific SPECIAL stats isn't a very good idea. We can already see firsthand that the SPECIAL requirements for Pegasi and Unicorns usually lead to unnaturally minmaxed characters, moreso with pegasi than unicorns, but still prevalent there too.

Also, I don't know why you're so hung up on STR bonuses for EPs. The only EPs with actual signs of being more strong than average in the show are AJ/Bigmac (And I guess Maud?). And they're farm ponies. They're strong because they work a farm. It's what happens when you do physical work day in, day out. What's more likely to be their manifestation of EP magic is their unnatural ability to empathize and work with their trees. Maybe Bigmac has an enhanced Strength, at least in FoE canon. But AJ? AJ's EP magic manifests itself in her dedication to her work (ie, a Skill based bonus).

For others, Pinkie is an obvious manifestation of heightened Perception (Which even in FoE terms makes sense, since Mint-Als in stat terms boost perception, and they made her senses more... hypercharged). There's nothing that suggests she has better strength than an average pony. She's got a /different/ thing her magic manifests as. And you might say, "What about Maud?" And to that, I say, it's the same situation as the Apples. She's been pushing heavy rocks around for a large chunk of every day for, if we can safely judge some of the Mane 6 age estimations, something close to 20 years. But, who's to say? Maybe she /does/ have enhanced strength, if she can crush rocks.

So okay. Let's think about this differently. What about the other EPs? Mr and Mrs Cake? Do they show signs of better strength? Not as far as I can remember. Filthy Rich? He's much more likely to have his magic manifest in Barter bonuses. Braeburn? Not much to indicate he's stronger than your average field worker or pioneer would be.

How about we look from an FoE (the fic) perspective? What are EPs in FoE known for, most of all? Well, that would definitely be EP technology. And that's all Skill based. Science and Mechanics, specifically. But, then you have to realize, not every EP is good at building things. So, what ARE they good at? That's where my previous suggestion comes in, because, all things considered, there isn't really any one things all EPs are universally better at. And that already shows in the system, as evidenced by the popular idea being thrown around that right now, EPs are supposed to make good specialists. So why not give them a system that actually works with that? That's part of what my aim was.

I will also say, every race getting a pool of 'resource points' is boring. If EPs are supposed to have innate magic that manifests more passively in the things they do (As opposed to the obvious unicorns that call upon their innate magic to cast learned spells), so why should they have to use what amounts to 'mana' for their abilities? Just design them in such a way that they aren't too strong to be more freely used. In this sense, the freedom of use is a benefit over other races, who on the other side of the coin are much more free to have a broader range of what they can do.

[Viewing_Glass]

So, let me preface my post with the following statement. I have played more unicorns than any other race in order to properly test the magic system. I've played a magic focused unicorn, a non-magic focused unicorn, and a one-trick unicorn.

I hate playing unicorns. Primarily because the magic system is so perk and stat intensive... which is why I wrote up the alternate magic system for unicorns. It needs work, but its a good place to start.

Anyway, my favorite race to play? Earth Ponies. Because Earth Ponies have to be so much more creative and, with the extra perks, have so many more options! Sure, some of their perks are rather... bad... but that can be said for every race but Griffins and Pegasi.

Long story short, Earth Pony racial perks, while focused in a couple areas, still offer some better options than other races. The bonus perks allows them more options... if anything, perhaps a retraining option needs to be added to the game.