Alternate Core Documents

[Godna]

actually 24+1d10 for 15ap is only middling damage. It's actually really low damage for it's tier.

[Thanqol]

What do you mean by "stunlock"? Nothing in this spell does stun damage, nor does anything cause loss of actions.

With 15 AP actions, the unicorn you mention is doing 24+1d10 damage a hit. Yes, that's pretty powerful for the AP cost... it is an expert version of the spell for a reason. But it's hardly insane, especially compared to other options that other characters would have at that level.

Also: I've altered the escape text to read: Targets held by the spell may attempt to break free as per Telekinesis. This would mean that bonuses for flight, and automatic escapes via heavy weapons and projectile battle saddles also apply.

Yeah, my concern wasn't about the damage, it was about being able to hold multiple high strength characters in a grapple while your allies whale on them. Imagine a pony like Horse Power; Strength 10, Flight, lots of unarmed, effective bonus on this grapple check escape modifier is +12. A unicorn barely focusing in this spell at Advanced level might have an effective grapple of +14, to +18 with a bare amount of specialisation. At expert level that same unicorn is between +24 and +40, which are both so much higher than the pegasus that it is basically impossible to escape. Celestia forbid anypony takes Mighty Spell rank 1 in this, which would give effective strength of 20 at the advanced level to 80 at the expert level, with which you could wrestle a Hydra or pluck Enclave Thunderheads from the sky.

The end result is either everypony starts wearing a battle saddle they never otherwise use just in case they get TK'd and need to automatically escape (which is gamey and goofy), or any unicorn vaguely focused in magic can automatically disable otherwise extremely effective melee or unarmed combatants.

I just basically think that the effective strength for grapple checks needs to be capped at +10, maybe +15 at most. The damage is fine like it is, but this grapple math is a serious problem.

[Viewing_Glass]

I am far from worried about the grapple math...I really only use basic telekinesis to drop someone prone in a combat situation (assuming they still are alive by the time my turn comes around. Damage values are so high its surprising to find an enemy in reach for me to grab with Telekinesis).

Honestly, I am more worried about the damage of the spell. At expert level, this spell, with a 6 STR, does 24+1d10. This damage is laughable at this tier, especially if you compare it to other expert level spells.
Arcane Blast (Expert): 48+3d10. Has a Rate of Fire equal to the Unicorn's Versatility but bounces off of shields, costs 5 less than Telekinetic Grasp.
Eldritch Knives (Expert): Summons (Versatility+6) Knives, each doing 16 Points of damage. Damage is totaled, then 1/2 of the targets DT is applied. Costs 10 less than Telekinetic Grasp, takes two casting actions to create the spell.
Energy Strike (Expert): 69+4d10 Damage at Long Range, plus other things depending on the energy chosen. Costs 5 less than Telekinetic Grasp.
Storm Cloud (Expert): Stores (Versatility*2) Bolts of Lightning that deal 69+8d10 Damage at Extreme Range once per round for 15 AP, only works outside. Costs 5 more than Telekinetic Grasp.
Heart Attack (Expert Only): Will just kill someone unless they can break line of sight with the Unicorn. Costs 10 more than Telekinetic Grasp, +10 per turn.
Telekinetic Bullet (Expert Only): Deals 160 Damage (At Potency 6), ignoring half DT. Costs 15 More than Telekinetic Grasp.

So, yeah. You might be able to cause 24+1d10 damage to a target for 15 AP. That's assuming they fail a strength or agility check, don't fire a battle saddle or a heavy weapon to just escape, and the unicorn doesn't just realize there are better offensive spells that will flat out cause more damage to a target.

[Thanqol]

I am far from worried about the grapple math...I really only use basic telekinesis to drop someone prone in a combat situation (assuming they still are alive by the time my turn comes around. Damage values are so high its surprising to find an enemy in reach for me to grab with Telekinesis).

I would really like to hear your explanation as to why you aren't worried about unicorns pinning and immobilising elder dragons.

There are basically two schools of combat philosophy: DPS and Control. Speccing for DPS gives you the ability to remove targets from the board through damage, which is what you're talking about. Control lets you remove targets from the board with status effects and battlefield manipulation, which is what we're talking about here. A Control spell that allows you to remove five fully healed, armoured and buffed targets from the board in a single round, regardless of size or power, is problematic.

It's especially problematic because there are rarely more than 4 or 5 PCs at the table, meaning one ST-controlled unicorn can theoretically wipe an entire adventuring party in one round.

[Viewing_Glass]

Oh, I have seen both schools of thought play out. However, here is your limitation both ways: AP.

Let's start with the DPS situation: A unicorn uses her spells to take out opponents on the board. She builds with going first in mind, as if anyone has the chance to ready an action (At a cost of 10 AP) and hit her for even 1 point of damage that gets by her DT, she would lose her spell. Otherwise the unicorn will go first and probably take out a single opponent at level 14...maybe two.

Alright, so a Control Unicorn is a different story. They pick up Sculpt, Shield, and other spells that allow you to wander around and (somewhat) effectively control the battlefield. Against the elder dragon, the unicorn does have a reasonable chance to...oh wait. Older dragons can fly. This means, no matter what, the dragon can make an Agility+2 attempt and break free. At that point, your unicorn is going to have a very large problem: They just spent, at level 14 (and assuming they have a rank of Spell Alacrity) 35 AP to try and fail to pin the dragon.

As far as a unicorn wiping the table with 4-5 players on it...can you show me how that is possible? I am wracking my brain and trying to see how a Unicorn could do it. And what do you mean by ST-controlled?

[Thanqol]

Against the elder dragon, the unicorn does have a reasonable chance to...oh wait. Older dragons can fly. This means, no matter what, the dragon can make an Agility+2 attempt and break free.

Break Free is an opposed check. The dragon can roll agility+2 = 11, maybe. The unicorn still has effective STR 40. The dragon has no chance at all of escape.

Dragon Max: 21. Unicorn Min: 41.

EDIT: Whoops, on reflection Mighty Spell is inapplicable to this scenario due to it being basic-only. Still, 40 STR is crazy huge.

As far as a unicorn wiping the table with 4-5 players on it...can you show me how that is possible? I am wracking my brain and trying to see how a Unicorn could do it. And what do you mean by ST-controlled?

ST = Storyteller = GM, sorry WoD lingo.

Same thing. Cast the spell before combat. Step out from behind a corner, make 5x 15AP grapples, immobilise and pin all 5 party members, step back behind the corner. Party is then all pinned and extremely vulnerable, especially if any of them are melee focused.

[Viewing_Glass]

Ok, I see the issue. You are missing the new line in Telekinetic Grasp:

"Targets held by the spell may attempt to break free as per Telekinesis."

This means that all any one has to do to break free from a Telekinetic Grasp is make a STR or AGI check at a penalty equal to the number of successes on the Unicorn's Science check (max -3). If the have a means of propulsion, they can make a check of AGI+2 to break free. There is also tbe option of firing a heavy weapon or a battle saddle to break free.

Happy to have resolved that issue.

[Thanqol]

Ok, I see the issue. You are missing the new line in Telekinetic Grasp:

"Targets held by the spell may attempt to break free as per Telekinesis."

This means that all any one has to do to break free from a Telekinetic Grasp is make a STR or AGI check at a penalty equal to the number of successes on the Unicorn's Science check (max -3). If the have a means of propulsion, they can make a check of AGI+2 to break free. There is also tbe option of firing a heavy weapon or a battle saddle to break free.

Happy to have resolved that issue.

Oh, that is a lot more reasonable, concern withdrawn.

One of my favourite parts of this system is the very reasonable grapple rules, which allow a variety of interesting combat manoeuvres without necessarily having to invest super hard in grapple related skills or perks, and the ability to resist such on the same grounds. My explosives-themed, zero-unarmed Pegasus achieved some surprising success in surprise attack tackleglomping cyberponies.

[Kkat]

Perk Adjustments:

• The Earth Pony perk Strong Buck has had its requirement increased to sixth level. Zebras now have the same perk available at eighth level.
• The Cyberfetish example of the Phoenix Implant has been given a 1 HP / minute regeneration, as per the similar alchemy perk.
• The Cyberpony Rank 3 has been changed so that the penalties to healing are as follows: normal medicine is ineffective on you; potions and healing magic provides only half its normal benefit.
• Accordingly, Cybersurgeon now specifies you may use normal medicine and healing (such as doctor's bags and hydra) on cyberponies with Cyberpony Rank 3.
• Jouster now reads like this: unarmed attacks with your horn have the Armor-Piercing quality, rather than Armor-Piercing (light). In addition, your gain +2 to your movement and bonus damage when charging.
• Royal Jouster now reads like this: unarmed attacks with your horn have the Armor-Piercing (heavy) quality. In addition, your movement and bonus damage when charging is [(End x 2) + (Agility x 2)]
• Two new racial perks: Rooted and Evasion are now available to Earth Pony, Pegasus, Griffin and Zebra characters. The requirements are slightly different, but the effects are the same: a bonus to avoiding certain advanced combat action effects and being manipulated by TK. The various Magically Powered Armor now gives a free rank in the appropriate perk.
• The third level Cyberpony Suites have been revised for clarity, and the Soldier and Engineer Suite's at third level have been slightly improved.

[Viewing_Glass]

Uh...just as a note: In regards to the perks Rooted and Evasion: if they do the same thing and the only difference is the requirements, why not make it a general perk with the requirements of level 6 and not random? Is there a special reason Unicorns (who cast TK) and Buffalo get singled out as not being able to get this perk?

In addition, you do realize that a pegasus with Evasion becomes nigh-impossible to grab with TK, right? As it would give them an affective 10 AGI to break out of TK.