Alternate Core Documents

[Night Light]

Deft Defense is a carbon copy of the crit evasion part of Clever Prancer. I think you're missing something.

Viewing Glass is actually right there. As written, your suggestion for Deft Defense would require an additional roll to see if a critical hit would be turned into a regular hit. Clever Prancer actually reduces the attackers chance to crit, meaning it's all done in the single attack roll.

As higher levels come along damage values escalate even more than before and they already escalate to ridiculous degrees at lower levels, especially with rapid-fire and low-AP weaponry. This is because every 1d10 that's added is a flat increase in average damage of 5.5, so low-level weapons can get their damage doubled by perks alone.
DT has no such mechanic and is already very low overall to begin with, with even Power Armor having an absolutely pitiful amount of DT that can be overcome by a .22 pistol after a few perks. (A suggestion here would be to give armor massive bonuses against attacks if the attacker's weapon's base damage is lower than the armor's DT.)
Honestly, this isn't something that should be fixed with perks, but rather a flaw in how the current system is set up that should be fixed somehow. Yes, combat should be lethal, but it should remain within reason. Unless it's a weapon on the level of a B.E.L. 500 damage in one hit is far beyond what can be considered reasonable.

While I'll agree that the lethality of the system is certainly very high and possibly in need of a bit of tweaking, creating an arms race between DT and damage isn't the way to solve it.

But as it stands right now, light armor really is the way to go, since at such highly escalating damage values, the chance to dodge a crit currently is worth much, much more than the drop in the ocean of a difference of 20DT makes past level ~14 (often even much before that).

Not necessarily. a single rank of Clever Prancer and my 31 DT in Salvaged Power Armor has worked quite well for me while playing the "tanking" unicorn. While negating crits is nice, when you get blasted 9 times in a row in a surprise round by turrets doing an average of 55 damage per shot, all you're really caring about is how much DT you have. I most certainly wouldn't trade off the DT and DR my heavy armor provides, even if I do eat a -2 Agility penalty for wearing it, for the second rank of Clever Prancer given my front-line focus.

It doesn't seem all too clunky, really.
Weapon does 50++ before perks.
You have two damage perks of +1d10 each.
You crit for x3.
Result: 150+6d10(base, multiplied by crits)+2d10(from perks)

It's clunky because base damage isn't a defined concept. Given ammo effects are included in base weapon notes, does that mean that the +2d10 from Max Charge MFCs (or any other +Xd10 damage ammo) would still get multiplied? What about +Xd10 damage from shamanism? Given it's noted as base damage for two weapons that are, realistically, just examples of enchanted weapons, it seems logical to count it as base damage as well. However, someone could easily disagree with either or both of those arguments, and that would radically change the power of that perk in those discussions.

[Zepheniah]

But as it stands right now, light armor really is the way to go, since at such highly escalating damage values, the chance to dodge a crit currently is worth much, much more than the drop in the ocean of a difference of 20DT makes past level ~14 (often even much before that).

Not necessarily. a single rank of Clever Prancer and my 31 DT in Salvaged Power Armor has worked quite well for me while playing the "tanking" unicorn. While negating crits is nice, when you get blasted 9 times in a row in a surprise round by turrets doing an average of 55 damage per shot, all you're really caring about is how much DT you have. I most certainly wouldn't trade off the DT and DR my heavy armor provides, even if I do eat a -2 Agility penalty for wearing it, for the second rank of Clever Prancer given my front-line focus.

That doesn't change the fact that even max-levelDT is just about worthless against almost any critical hit from weapons above "Tier 1" after the crit-bonus perk is taken. The scaling of damage comically outstrips any available defense incredibly rapidly and should either be reduced to mantain some semblance of balance or capped somehow.
Going by your example, the difference between equivalent levels and condition of light armor and your power armor is 20% DR and between 12 and 15DT, which means you'd take between 108 and 135 damage more before DR.
...but, if only one of those shots had crit, you would have taken at a bare minimum 55 extra average damage, but up to 220 extra average damage, both of which basically ignore DT entirely. With light armor you at least stand a chance of surviving an attack like that by reducing the enemy's crit chance by 75% with Clever Prancer.
It's a choice between (assuming ~level 20) losing about 30% of your HP extra overall versus an entire round of attacks, or losing 50% of it in a single hit (out of many that are already hurting you for an average of ~50% of your HP) without any way to counter the damage.
So, as a result you either choose between ending up with 20% HP and a good chance to survive a crit, or with 50% HP and no chance of surviving a crit whatsoever.

Then again, the info you gave me on your scenario was extremely sparse and vague, so I don't really have much to work with.

It doesn't seem all too clunky, really.
Weapon does 50++ before perks.
You have two damage perks of +1d10 each.
You crit for x3.
Result: 150+6d10(base, multiplied by crits)+2d10(from perks)

It's clunky because base damage isn't a defined concept. Given ammo effects are included in base weapon notes, does that mean that the +2d10 from Max Charge MFCs (or any other +Xd10 damage ammo) would still get multiplied? What about +Xd10 damage from shamanism? Given it's noted as base damage for two weapons that are, realistically, just examples of enchanted weapons, it seems logical to count it as base damage as well. However, someone could easily disagree with either or both of those arguments, and that would radically change the power of that perk in those discussions.

Base Damage = What it says on the weapons doc.
Since imbuing enchantments add flat damage and not dice, they wouldn't be affected.
Shamanism isn't completed yet, so I can't comment.

[Dance_Explosion]

Well i have to say that Cleve Prancer is one of the best perks, and ALMOST a must have for many types of characters. But i have never seen it as too good yet.

1) Its a rare defensive perk that saves player lives.
2) power armor, and steel rangers, are already almost unfairly powerful already and without clever prancer the only reason to not wear power armor, is because you can never get the training for the bloody stuff.

Now if the perk absolutely needed a nerf of any kind, i could see it loosing the bonus it adds to critical hits, but then again i don't think clever prancer is too good for its level, i think more high level perks should be this good, and not let steel rangers use them.

[Night Light]

That doesn't change the fact that even max-levelDT is just about worthless against almost any critical hit from weapons above "Tier 1" after the crit-bonus perk is taken. The scaling of damage comically outstrips any available defense incredibly rapidly and should either be reduced to mantain some semblance of balance or capped somehow.
Going by your example, the difference between equivalent levels and condition of light armor and your power armor is 20% DR and between 12 and 15DT, which means you'd take between 108 and 135 damage more before DR.
...but, if only one of those shots had crit, you would have taken at a bare minimum 55 extra average damage, but up to 220 extra average damage, both of which basically ignore DT entirely. With light armor you at least stand a chance of surviving an attack like that by reducing the enemy's crit chance by 75% with Clever Prancer.
It's a choice between (assuming ~level 20) losing about 30% of your HP extra overall versus an entire round of attacks, or losing 50% of it in a single hit (out of many that are already hurting you for an average of ~50% of your HP) without any way to counter the damage.
So, as a result you either choose between ending up with 20% HP and a good chance to survive a crit, or with 50% HP and no chance of surviving a crit whatsoever.

You make an excellent point, which has really been my point this whole time - why would you want to nerf Clever Prancer? Heavy armor is barely better than Light armor, and it's already a pain to pick up Clever Prancer in Heavy armor given all the good armors in that list give -2 Agility, giving Clever Prancer an effective 8 Agility prereq. And, as you note, even large amounts of DT are very weak against crits, especially from MEWs, weapons with the Magic descriptor, and/or ponies with How We Do it Down on the Farm, making the other perk suggestion a weak replacement to Clever Prancer for Heavy armor, even if multiplied. I do still, however, think that Steadfast Defender could be an interesting perk to add into the current perk list, I'll be sure to bring that up in our pre-game discussions at Kkat's game next week.

Base Damage = What it says on the weapons doc.
Since imbuing enchantments add flat damage and not dice, they wouldn't be affected.
Shamanism isn't completed yet, so I can't comment.

Again, my point, basic ammo is included in the listings for the weapons doc, so it could easily be argued that all ammo types should be a part of base damage for a weapon. It creates an unnecessary conversation that's entirely avoided by just not nerfing Clever Prancer.

Now if the perk absolutely needed a nerf of any kind, i could see it loosing the bonus it adds to critical hits, but then again i don't think clever prancer is too good for its level, i think more high level perks should be this good, and not let steel rangers use them.

Agreed, it'd be a fine perk without the +2% crit, and the -2 Agility penalty and 6 Agility prereq keeps it out of all but the most Defensive-oriented Steel Ranger hooves (or any heavy armor wearing pony, really). And even then, you can only take the first rank in Heavy armor.

[Zepheniah]

You make an excellent point, which has really been my point this whole time - why would you want to nerf Clever Prancer? Heavy armor is barely better than Light armor, and it's already a pain to pick up Clever Prancer in Heavy armor given all the good armors in that list give -2 Agility, giving Clever Prancer an effective 8 Agility prereq. And, as you note, even large amounts of DT are very weak against crits, especially from MEWs, weapons with the Magic descriptor, and/or ponies with How We Do it Down on the Farm, making the other perk suggestion a weak replacement to Clever Prancer for Heavy armor, even if multiplied. I do still, however, think that Steadfast Defender could be an interesting perk to add into the current perk list, I'll be sure to bring that up in our pre-game discussions at Kkat's game next week.

Not necessarily nerf Clever Prancer per-se, but make its evasion effect a separate perk. It feels like just too much of a 'must have' in general with good offensive and great defensive capabilities in a single package, so my initial and admittedly somewhat clumsy idea was to split the effects into two separate perks with distinct effects.

And yeah, Steadfast Defender looks like it has potential and while it won't put too much of a dent into the massive crits most weapons can put out, it'd still negate a good wad of damage and set Heavy Armor apart as something more than a cosmetic choice in the face of critical attacks.

Again, my point, basic ammo is included in the listings for the weapons doc, so it could easily be argued that all ammo types should be a part of base damage for a weapon. It creates an unnecessary conversation that's entirely avoided by just not nerfing Clever Prancer.

Well, it could be quite simply stated in the description that ammo is part of the weapon's base damage as it's an actual physical change to the weapon's payload, rather than damage perks which use ...sheer willpower(?).
And again, this perk would be separate from the changes to Clever Prancer entirely, more designed to open up more defensive options versus the plethora of offensive ones.

[TyrannisUmbra]

Heavy armor is barely better than Light armor, and it's already a pain to pick up Clever Prancer in Heavy armor given all the good armors in that list give -2 Agility, giving Clever Prancer an effective 8 Agility prereq.

Stat prerequisites don't factor in temporary stat boosts or losses. If your naked AGI is 6, then you can take Clever Prancer. It doesn't matter if you happen to be wearing armor with an AGI penalty at the time of levelup. That's like being able to take Celestial Aid on your CHA 3 character simply because you took PTMs before levelup.

I agree that weapons need to be toned down a bit, but only /some/ weapons. Not only that, but DT is not anywhere near as bad as you're saying it is. My unicorn brute in mid-level armor regularly takes massive amounts of damage like it was nothing. In fact... with a weapon that is dealing ~10+5d10 at 20AP, she only takes ~50 damage a round on average, with a max of about 145 if every single d10 comes up as a 10 (Which is a 10-thousandth of a percent chance, mind you). Against most automatic weapons, the damage she takes is reduced to the absolute minimum value.

You seem to be complaining mostly about crits, but I hate to break it to you: Crits are supposed to snap you like a twig. DT is working as intended in that regard.

EDIT: To be honest, I've always held the view that the real reason high-level combat ends so quickly is because at high levels, every single attack you make has a 100% chance to hit. If there was still say, a 20% chance to miss at high levels, combat would be much less swingy. After all, for example, automatic weapons are generally based off the idea that you'll be missing more often by firing in burst or full-auto, which is the tradeoff for being able to attack much more AP-efficiently. But once you start maxing skills and getting accuracy increasing and penalty-reducing perks, suddenly you start having a 100% chance to hit with full-auto, and then things start to get silly.

[Night Light]

Not necessarily nerf Clever Prancer per-se, but make its evasion effect a separate perk. It feels like just too much of a 'must have' in general with good offensive and great defensive capabilities in a single package, so my initial and admittedly somewhat clumsy idea was to split the effects into two separate perks with distinct effects.

I definitely agree that splitting the +2% crit off of Clever Prancer would be just fine, as Viewing Glass and Dance Explosion have noted before.

And yeah, Steadfast Defender looks like it has potential and while it won't put too much of a dent into the massive crits most weapons can put out, it'd still negate a good wad of damage and set Heavy Armor apart as something more than a cosmetic choice in the face of critical attacks.

Yeah, Steadfast Defender might be an interesting perk around level 6-8, kind of an opposite to Finesse.

Stat prerequisites don't factor in temporary stat boosts or losses. If your naked AGI is 6, then you can take Clever Prancer. It doesn't matter if you happen to be wearing armor with an AGI penalty at the time of levelup. That's like being able to take Celestial Aid on your CHA 3 character simply because you took PTMs before levelup.

Kkat's actually noted that if your stats are insufficient to meet the prereqs of a perk you have, such as from a penalty to Agility from armor or poison damage to Endurance, then you lose the benefits of that perk. Given it's supposed to be difficult for power armor wearers to pick up the Agi-prereq perks such as Hit the Deck! and Clever Prancer, it makes a lot of sense. That may be something needing clarifying in the rules section.

You seem to be complaining mostly about crits, but I hate to break it to you: Crits are supposed to snap you like a twig. DT is working as intended in that regard.

Given how (relatively) easily a pony can reach 30-50% crit chance (depending on Stealth or not), I'd 100% disagree that crits should just "snap you like a twig". But, that said, yes, crits should be dangerous, and having some perks to counter that danger (such as Clever Prancer, possibly Steadfast Defender if it gets passed) is very appropriate.

[TyrannisUmbra]

Kkat's actually noted that if your stats are insufficient to meet the prereqs of a perk you have, such as from a penalty to Agility from armor or poison damage to Endurance, then you lose the benefits of that perk. Given it's supposed to be difficult for power armor wearers to pick up the Agi-prereq perks such as Hit the Deck! and Clever Prancer, it makes a lot of sense. That may be something needing clarifying in the rules section.

If that's how it's supposed to work, then it's definitely not listed anywhere obvious in the rules. That besides, something like that would require a LOT of micromanagement of perks, considering how many of them have requirements like that, and how common stat penalties are. It's something that may make sense from a realworld logic standpoint, but it doesn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint.

Given how (relatively) easily a pony can reach 30-50% crit chance (depending on Stealth or not), I'd 100% disagree that crits should just "snap you like a twig". But, that said, yes, crits should be dangerous, and having some perks to counter that danger (such as Clever Prancer, possibly Steadfast Defender if it gets passed) is very appropriate.

As far as I'm aware, such high levels of crit are only available to melee stealthers because of the ninja perk, or as a result of Calamity's Might/Rampage's Wrath. Running with Built to Destroy and Finesse, my unicorn only manages 14%, and that's as high as it will ever get for her. Having Clever Prancer to counter it is definitely nice, but I don't think the 'problem' is an actual problem. Maybe it's just the fact that I'm playing a campaign that blatantly said my character was going to die (though she hasn't yet, even if she's been close enough a few times), but I don't see crits as a problem that needs fixing.

[Zepheniah]

Stat prerequisites don't factor in temporary stat boosts or losses. If your naked AGI is 6, then you can take Clever Prancer. It doesn't matter if you happen to be wearing armor with an AGI penalty at the time of levelup. That's like being able to take Celestial Aid on your CHA 3 character simply because you took PTMs before levelup.

Kkat's actually noted that if your stats are insufficient to meet the prereqs of a perk you have, such as from a penalty to Agility from armor or poison damage to Endurance, then you lose the benefits of that perk. Given it's supposed to be difficult for power armor wearers to pick up the Agi-prereq perks such as Hit the Deck! and Clever Prancer, it makes a lot of sense. That may be something needing clarifying in the rules section.

That seems like an overly cumbersome way of handling things, not to mention the other pitfalls that arise, such as a character with Celestial Blessing going splat in an instant because they no longer meet the requirements and loose 60HP out of nowhere in the middle of a fight.
The simplest way would seem to add it as a clause to perks for which it would be relevant (mostly AGI-based perks, such as Clever Prancer), saying "You may only benefit from the effects of this perk as long as you meet all of its requirements."
Although on that note the other implication of doing it like this would be interesting as being able to pick perks up that you don't yet meet the requirements of might bring some fun consumable-based builds that focus around reaching those requirements in temporary, purpose-driven ways. (Moar drugs, yay~)

[Kkat]

The following has been added to the Perks section of the mane document: Perks have requirements which must be met before taking the perk. Temporary enhancements or alterations (such as from drugs or spells) do not allow a character to take perks she would not normally qualify for. Temporary reductions (such as from poison or armor penalties) do not prevent a character from taking a perk, although a character is cannot use perks she has but does not currently qualify for.

The following perks have been adjusted:

Strafing Run is now level 12.
Coolness Under Fire now actually has a game-applicable effect.
Flesh Wound is a new level 6 perk that grants you more DT against critical hits based on your armor.
Ah Fixed It now affects DT not DR.

A couple new notes in order to resolve some debate about skill points, hit points and strain:
Enhancements or reductions to Intelligence do not change a character's number of skill points. Permanent changes to Intelligence do not affect skill points gained from previous levels. Enhancements and reductions to Intelligence or Endurance do affect Hit Points and Strain. Permanent changes to these SPECIALs will change Hit Points and Strain gained across all character levels.