Alternate Core Documents

[Thanqol]

i have to say, if this happened in our game, it would be AWESOME since that's more then 1/3d of most characters AP and would be silly useful, granted this would also require all the enemies you fight to know you have and plan to use a grenade.

If you're fine with an explosives character who never actually uses explosives, sure.

Look, it occurs to me that all this ridiculous stuff about dodging grenades with readied actions is dumb doubling up of mechanics. There is already an action for dodging grenades! It's called dodge. If we really gotta do this (that is, nerf explosive users until they take a level 6 perk) can we save ourselves from doubling up mechanics math and timing operations and, say, double dodge bonuses against grenades before the perk is taken? Grenades scatter when they miss so the running dodge thing is already modelled too.

I'd also like to point out that in the Fallout games, if you throw a grenade, the enemies WILL run out of the blast radius. The only way to make them actually useful are against "dumb" enemies, or by throwing them in such a way that they don't have the space to escape the radius.

Or by getting lucky.

I will counter by pointing out that if you throw a grenade at an enemy in VATS it will always hit at point blank and will always do full damage.

[TyrannisUmbra]

I will counter by pointing out that if you throw a grenade at an enemy in VATS it will always hit at point blank and will always do full damage.

And I will counter by pointing out that the purpose of VATS as it could be applied to a realistic world is to perform highly accurate calculations within microseconds -- such as exactly when to throw a grenade so that it explodes the moment it reaches the calculated destination. For your everyday grenade-throwing, sentient enemies will try to avoid getting exploded.

Keeping in mind the word sentient. A large portion of the enemies you will fight do not fall under that category. Radscorpions and feral ghouls don't possess the mental ability necessary to realize that grenades will explode and hurt a lot.

[uSea]

Ooo, Thrown Explosives stuff. It's been a while since I looked at those. Quite a while actually, and I see that their stats in my list are quite a bit lower than the source material (Fo3/NV). If I remember correctly I made them weaker (but quite a bit cheaper) since they were the only attack an Explosive character would get before the Missile Launcher. I made them weaker so it would take more than 2 hits to kill a player-like target (and anyone around them) and made them cheaper so an Explosives character wouldn't bankrupt themselves buying a single Frag Grenade. This was before things like the Anti-Pony Grenade Rifle were introduced to give Explosive characters an affordable direct combat option and long before there were more defined rules for Thrown Explosives.

Long story short, I don't mind increasing the damage and value of existing thrown explosives to make them closer to Fo3/NV, and adding other varieties (like improvised powder explosives or something), to make comparatively weak but very cheap explosive weapons.

On the subject of 'cooking grenades', if it came up in my game I had planned to allow anyone to do it for an extra 10AP, -20 Explosives, and +5% C.Fail chance. A character with Explosives Expert could do this for just 10AP and no other penalty. Otherwise Thrown Explosives would explode next turn, forcing enemies out of cover or making a mess of, say, an armoured caravan full of murderous slavers.

I was also toying with the idea of Thrown Explosives having a bonus to hit but with a note suggesting that GMs apply heavy penalties based on the difficulty of the throw. Hopefully this would promote making basic actions with Thrown Explosives even without a significant skill investment, while still making tricky actions (like throwing through a window at a distance) need a high Explosive skill. My reasoning for this is that there is precious little entertainment for foals in the wasteland and throwing things would be a significant pass time, giving most ponies rudimentary practice at least.


Expanded (experimental) Weapon Mods
I've added an experimental set of ranged weapon Mods to the Tiered list inspired by Madd_Mod's ideas.
There are also optional rules for using Mechanics (or another suitable skill if its high enough) to install the Mods or even to make your own from a list of components. Melee weapon mods are being worked on at the moment.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... Rnc#gid=30

[Thanqol]

And I will counter by pointing out that the purpose of VATS as it could be applied to a realistic world is to perform highly accurate calculations within microseconds -- such as exactly when to throw a grenade so that it explodes the moment it reaches the calculated destination. For your everyday grenade-throwing, sentient enemies will try to avoid getting exploded.

Your argument is absurd. First you argue that it is difficult to hit things with explosives in Fallout games, therefore explosives should be nerfed to model that, and then you argue that it's unrealistic how easy it is to hit things in Fallout games, therefore explosives should be nerfed for realism.

I think both lines of argument are utterly bankrupt. The Fallout games are FPS games, not tactical tabletop wargames, so the FPS elements are irrelevant (Oh - and you're perfectly capable of cooking grenades in Fallout without needing a perk. Being able to time it right is a product of player skill and not the system). Secondly, arguing for realism is absurd given how ridiculous the physics of technicolour ponies surviving a point blank frag grenade in the first place is.

No one in the real world has 100 ranks in Explosives and no army department uses explosives as a primary battle strategy. For the purposes of a tactical wargame where explosives are supposedly a combat path comparable to Melee, Firearms or (Celestia forbid) Battle Saddles then we should look at what makes sense and is fun for the tactical wargame and realism can stuff itself.

EDIT: Sorry if I ever seem worked up during these discussions! I'm not, I'm always totally calm because I've got an IV full of chillax directly into my bloodstream. I am, however, an honesty pony so I always say what I think straight up and I always try and argue for what makes the most fun game.

[TyrannisUmbra]

Your argument is absurd. First you argue that it is difficult to hit things with explosives in Fallout games, therefore explosives should be nerfed to model that, and then you argue that it's unrealistic how easy it is to hit things in Fallout games, therefore explosives should be nerfed for realism.

Er, not at all? I'm saying that exploding at the end of the round is what thrown explosives should have been doing in the first place.

I think both lines of argument are utterly bankrupt. The Fallout games are FPS games, not tactical tabletop wargames, so the FPS elements are irrelevant (Oh - and you're perfectly capable of cooking grenades in Fallout without needing a perk. Being able to time it right is a product of player skill and not the system). Secondly, arguing for realism is absurd given how ridiculous the physics of technicolour ponies surviving a point blank frag grenade in the first place is.

Just because this is a tabletop PNP doesn't mean it shouldn't behave like its source material, not that it shouldn't behave in a logical way. Most tabletop PNP games are actually /more/ realistic than other game genres. Tabletop PNP is an RPG most of all, and the people who play them tend to want their fictional gameworld to be believeable enough that it could be real with a small amount of suspension of belief.

I'd also like to say that the Fallout games aren't FPS games. FO3 and NV may look like FPS games, but they behave like an RPG at the mechanics level. The only things they really have in common with an FPS is that you can play in first person, and there are guns in the game. All the actual game mechanics are based heavily on traditional RPG mechanics much moreso than any FPS mechanics. The official genre of FO3 and NV is "Action RPG".

And... you can't actually cook off grenades in FO3/NV. They always explode with the same delay, no matter how long you hold them. I use them extensively in my playthroughs (Because on VHard Hardcore, you need to be using every tool at your disposal). From the wiki: "Because the fuse of a thrown explosive doesn't start until actually thrown, a thrown explosive can be primed for maximum range almost indefinitely." (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Thrown_explosive/)

No one in the real world has 100 ranks in Explosives and no army department uses explosives as a primary battle strategy. For the purposes of a tactical wargame where explosives are supposedly a combat path comparable to Melee, Firearms or (Celestia forbid) Battle Saddles then we should look at what makes sense and is fun for the tactical wargame and realism can stuff itself.

While I agree that the game should be fun and balanced, it should not come at the cost of realism if at all possible. Realism is part of the fun and the appeal of both tabletop PNP games AND the age-old idea of the wasteland, and to some extent Fallout in general. If you have concerns about balance problems with low-level characters, then there is probably a way to fix it without needing to revert.

I think you should also check out what uSea said. Thrown explosives have a tactical advantage as well when thrown, even if you don't hit anything with them. It's one of those things that comes with the archetype, and there's plenty of ways to play with it.

[s]]Edit: Or at least I swear uSea originally said something about tactically using thrown grenades (using them to flush ponies out of cover comes to mind as one thing), but it's not there anymore. Am I going crazy? Did someone else say it and I'm just confusing them?[/s]
Oh nevermind, I found it. Today's looking to be a failtastic day!
Edit 2: No Strikethrough, FoER? I am disappoint.

[Thanqol]

Er, not at all? I'm saying that exploding at the end of the round is what thrown explosives should have been doing in the first place.

It's unnecessarily complex, inelegant mechanically and not fun that way.

Just because this is a tabletop PNP doesn't mean it shouldn't behave like its source material, not that it shouldn't behave in a logical way. Most tabletop PNP games are actually /more/ realistic than other game genres. Tabletop PNP is an RPG most of all, and the people who play them tend to want their fictional gameworld to be believeable enough that it could be real with a small amount of suspension of belief.

I'd also like to say that the Fallout games aren't FPS games. FO3 and NV may look like FPS games, but they behave like an RPG at the mechanics level. The only things they really have in common with an FPS is that you can play in first person, and there are guns in the game. All the actual game mechanics are based heavily on traditional RPG mechanics much moreso than any FPS mechanics. The official genre of FO3 and NV is "Action RPG".

You have three conflicting objectives here: Fun, realism, and adherence to the mechanics of a first person shooter. While the RPG elements of the FPS are fun and fine and a reason for showing up, the action/timing part of this game functions a lot more like the turn-based Fallout 1 and 2. By trying to shoehorn real-time considerations into a turn-based game you're sacrificing fun for realism because the shooter mechanics told you to.

I'm of the belief that fun should always trump realism, and everything should trump emulating the gameplay of first person shooters.

While I agree that the game should be fun and balanced, it should not come at the cost of realism if at all possible. Realism is part of the fun and the appeal of both tabletop PNP games AND the age-old idea of the wasteland, and to some extent Fallout in general. If you have concerns about balance problems with low-level characters, then there is probably a way to fix it without needing to revert.

Think of this in terms of issues and solutions.
Issue: Low level explosive players are overpowered.
Solution: Nerf explosives. Preferably do this through an elegant mechanic that already exists in the system, like lowering damage, or interacting with the existing dodge mechanics.

Issue: Grenades are 'unrealistic' and should be easier to dodge.
Solution: Nerf explosives. Preferably do this through an elegant mechanic that already exists in the system, like lowering damage, or interacting with the existing dodge mechanics.

Issue: Explosives are unrealistically underpowered because we just nerfed them
Solution: Buff explosives base damage to compensate for everyone being able to dodge them now.

Issue: Grenades are 'unrealistic' and should be easier to dodge.
Solution: Create a complex timing problem that forces players to guess how many grenades it'll take to kill a guy each round and opens the door for readied actions to render grenades 100% ineffective, until level 6 where a perk becomes available to remove all of these questions - DO NOT GO WITH THIS ANSWER

EDIT: For what it's worth, if the grenade exploded on the thrower's next round, and had a much higher base damage to compensate for almost always missing, I wouldn't have a problem.

I think you should also check out what uSea said. Thrown explosives have a tactical advantage as well when thrown, even if you don't hit anything with them. It's one of those things that comes with the archetype, and there's plenty of ways to play with it.

With ponies as fast as they are, and firearms as long range as they are, there is little tactical benefit to forcing a guy to move 15 yards in exchange for 25AP and 50 caps.

[s]]Edit: Or at least I swear uSea originally said something about tactically using thrown grenades (using them to flush ponies out of cover comes to mind as one thing), but it's not there anymore. Am I going crazy? Did someone else say it and I'm just confusing them?[/s]
Oh nevermind, I found it. Today's looking to be a failtastic day!
Edit 2: No Strikethrough, FoER? I am disappoint.

What uSea actually said was that grenades are already nerfed in order to make them a viable strategy for low level players. If you're going to nerf them again for reasons of 'realism' then you're going to have to give explosives a buff to make the game internally balanced.

[Kkat]

Current Projects:

Stealth rules -- I still need to write up an expanded section on sneaking with will include bonuses and penalties to Perception and Sneak rolls. When citing examples, focus will be given to poor lighting, range and adverse stealth conditions.

Shamanism -- The section on zebra spirit favors by Dance Explosion is ready to be added to the rules system. In the next few days, I will be doing some clean-up work (polishing formatting and integrating the general rule modifications into the current document) and porting the rules into the mane document. In addition, buffalo spirit favors are being given another look and I hope that those rules will be ready by the end of the month. Finally, a general write-up for Spirits is ready to be added to the Shamanism section.

Zebra Martial Arts -- Dance Explosion has begun work on martial arts for zebras. Martial Arts will follow the same perk/suite style format as EP cybernetics. More on that to come.

[Kkat]

Update:

Spent all week working on a 15-page interview for the upcoming MLP Fan Fiction Documentary. As a result, none of the above things have been done.

[Kkat]

Very minor update:

The Modifying Equipment section has been expanded slightly to include modifying armor for alicorns to wear. More details are available in the armor section of the Tiered Weapons document.

[Mister_Clacky]

I'm curious about how explosives are /supposed/ to work for damage. We've been playing it that when a target is struck by an explosive (Grenade goes off at their hooves, get blasted by a grenade rifle) they take the full damage and anyone within the splash radius takes the splash damage. But then I came upon this level 12 perk:

Splash Damage - When you use explosives, the area which takes full damage is double the AoE value for the explosive.

So, I thought: it does full damage in a 60' radius (double splash AoE range)? Well, that obviously can't be right. So it must double the actual AoE for full damage... wait... There is a full damage AoE range?

And so here I am, digging through the rules. Figured I'd ask here too. Besides, something needs to be changed to make that Splash Damage perk less vague.