Alternate Core Documents

[Viewing_Glass]

Side note:

In order for a Unicorn to be good at magic, they have to spend at least two perks and have an INT of at least 8. That is to simply master they first set of spells they get.

That's not even remotely true. I built a unicorn with an 8 INT at first level thus using no perks. It's even possible to build one with maxed INT and END by dumping the other stats, it's not recommended, but still possible.

I'm looking at an overall view, EDtiGron. They need the 8 INT to qualify for Expert Spells.

[TyrannisUmbra]

And, on the topic of arbitrary rules restrictions, What make cybernetics only work with EP physiology? Now, creating and installing implants I can see no problem, but if EPs are balanced with the other races because of the number of perks that they have (and for the sake of the question, we'll assume they are whether true or not) to the point that some even say that they can outshine the other races in those areas, why do they need the cyberpony perks all to themselves? If they are balanced with the others, then how would opening the perks up to the other races screw up said balance?

That's been discussed to death, but I'll summarize:

Everypony agrees that restricting cyberpony to EPs is dumb. But a select few who make and maintain some of the rules insist on tying Cyberpony stuff in some way to EPs. No GM I know of actually restricts Cyberpony stuff to EPs. The last reason I remember being given for restricting to EPs was something along the lines of, "Okay, any race can become a basic cyberpony, but only EPs have the constitution necessary to survive while being given the more invasive cybernetics"

And Thanqol, I think the majority of the problem that people are having with your Invention EP magic is that it takes something previously open to everypony and restricts it in some fashion to be EP-exclusive, when it doesn't make a whole lot of sense overall. There's a similar problem with alchemy -- Yes, there are recipes that should be zebra-specific, but the majority of them are things that anypony should be able to learn how to make. For anypony who wants to make say, a griffon who fights by coating her talons in poison, well you'd better hope you have a zebra in the party, because the best poison you can make without having one of the alchemy perks is hardly even worth the materials.

What you really need to do if you're set on the Invention thing is make sure that anypony who wants to be a mechanic can invent things with the right kind of investment, but make EPs be able to do it faster/easier/20%cooler. And make sure you have a believable reason when asked why unicorns and zebras can't do the same thing.

That's the difference between this and unicorn magic. "Why can't EPs use magic?" "Because they don't have a horn!"

[Night Light]

Later on in the invention rules it specifically says 'Work out with your GM how it works and what the costs are'.

Yes, which is GM- and player-driven creation, which is, you know, pretty much at the core of any tabletop roleplaying game. Choosing options from a list isn't exactly invention anymore, now is it? Besides, even your suggestion involved "Work out with your GM what's acceptable for a level of innovation, but now only earth ponies can do that".

All that stuff is modification, except 'craft an item based on a schematic'. The Earth pony special ability rests on them being able to create schematics. Where are the mechanics for that? Specifically under the 'GM fiat' entry.

Crafting an item based on a schematic is item creation, pointing that out given your comment of "There are currently no rules about building things". A schematic is described as typically needing four or five appropriate components, of which there are plenty of options noted in the various item tables to use or base new items off of. A schematic is created using invention, with very specific rules on the time and skill required, as I noted above. GM fiat would be "no guidelines, the GM says it so it happens". These perfectly functional guidelines allow for GM and player cooperation to make something truly unique. It does, unfortunately, require the GM and player to actually think through what would be balanced and what's a fair cost to make it.

Oh. Well, QED, I guess. Your sample size and statistical methodology are completely flawless.

The sample size and methodology is still so flawed that any statistical conclusions that you draw from that are deeply suspect. More research is needed and that only gives the numbers of earth ponies in existence.

Amusing.

Anyways, I'll happily refer you to the masters text Learning & Practicing Econometrics by Griffiths, W.E., R. C. Hill, and G. G. Judge, or practically any environmental econ text out there, if you'd actually like to read further into basic survey analysis. As I noted, that was a cursory overview of a basic survey, which is perfectly acceptable for such a simple analysis. 49 is, notably, fine for a sample size for such an analysis - not excellent, but far from fflawed. Most environmental econ existence-valuation surveys are functional with even less. I feel comfortable saying that Earth Ponies in general are the most populous race (if not strictly the most popular, though that can be inferred from such a result) given our sample, as 44% is unlikely to be a sampling error. As always, a more extensive sample could obviously change that result. Your argument was that there is an "overall 'Earth Ponies are useless' malaise." which looks to be entirely unsubstantiated by the player base.

Yahuh, but that's not niche protected even slightly.

...

'Less chance of crit failing' isn't really very cool. And let's be straight, this is about coolness.

...

Of virtually no use to a player character wandering the wastes, unfortunately.

...

Sure, that's kind of neat, but it's also extremely underwhelming. Gears of Harmony is 'slightly better loot, ability to use machines at GM Fiat'. Ah Fixed It is +2 DT, and let's not wax romantic about how interesting +2 DT is. These are very boring abilities with no room for customization. The abilities aren't bad, they're just presented in very boring ways.

I'll immediately point out that your question was "Then how does the supposed earth pony affinity with mechanics get clearly understood without this system...?" - an affinity clearly outlined by the above perks, many of which are useful in a great many circumstances. While I'll give you some of them aren't the most flashy things, they're very functional and have proven time and again to be valuable. Also, I forgot to include Robotics Expert (rank 2), which is another excellent addition to that list.

Notably, Raise That Barn has shown to be incredibly useful, especially to our master mechanic earth pony, Red Button. We often put together a team of earth pony mechanics and scientists to assist us create schematics faster, build vital equipment, and have even repaired an entire Enclave Raptor in time (less than one day) to assist with rescuing the slaves from Fillydelphia.

As far as niche protection goes, it tends to be pretty minor in this setting. Earth ponies, unicorns, zebras, alicorns, and gryphons can all fly one way or another. Shamanism and unicorn magic share an awful lot of utility, offensive, and defensive capabilities, and there are a number of items and elixirs that function similarly if not identically to unicorn magic. Unicorn magic and pegasus magic share a number of similar abilities mechanically, and gryphons and alicorns also can get access to pegasus magic. Obviously, alicorns and unicorns both share the same pool of magic.

Earth ponies are always able inventors, whereas all other races must invest in Science, Medicine, and/or Survival to be able to invent, and if an earth pony does focus on invention and creation, they're certainly the best at it, especially when they work in teams. Also, if earth ponies aren't interested in going down the creation/invention rout, they can always go into the Infiltrator or Soldier cybernetics suites, which dive into the further lack-of-niche-protection and gives them access to abilities normally only available to other races or through the use of magic.

And Thanqol, I think the majority of the problem that people are having with your Invention EP magic is that it takes something previously open to everypony and restricts it in some fashion to be EP-exclusive, when it doesn't make a whole lot of sense overall. There's a similar problem with alchemy -- Yes, there are recipes that should be zebra-specific, but the majority of them are things that anypony should be able to learn how to make. For anypony who wants to make say, a griffon who fights by coating her talons in poison, well you'd better hope you have a zebra in the party, because the best poison you can make without having one of the alchemy perks is hardly even worth the materials.

What you really need to do if you're set on the Invention thing is make sure that anypony who wants to be a mechanic can invent things with the right kind of investment, but make EPs be able to do it faster/easier/20%cooler.

Solid point and well said, Tyrannis. For alchemy, the setting building logic is certainly that advanced alchemical creations involve a bit of spiritual magic, unique to Zebras. Though I can definitely see (and have argued) that some of the recipes locked to Zebra-only should be extended to all races with the appropriate skill, poisons and smoke bombs being among them. For cybernetics, the setting building logic behind restricting it to Earth Ponies is because their inherent magic is about incorporating and building, allowing them to easily work cybernetics into their system without rejection, whereas including such invasive mechanisms destroys the inherent abilities that allow unicorn magic or pegasus magic to function, exactly like cutting off a unicorn's horn or a pegasus' wings.

Raise That Barn certainly plays into the desire for earth ponies to be able to invent/create faster and easier, though I could certainly see that being expanded upon.

[Thanqol]

Actually, being able to invent things isn't what makes Earth Ponies flashy or good. What makes Earth Ponies flashy or good is the fact they flat out have more perks to become the best at what they do.

ONE extra perk. Singular.

Nothing says a unicorn has to get good at magic. The unicorn can totally neglect magic and be one perk behind an earth pony. One level 1-4 Perk, which can buy you +2 DT or +1 STR or something. In exchange, the unicorn can now teleport freely, or have significant out of combat healing potential, and a bunch of other things. A change to Pegasus buys you a 2x speed modifier and flight, that's hella worth the 2DT.

Oh, and as for Mechanics being boring? Red Button, the Earth Pony Mechanic has done the following:

Mechanics is theoretically interesting. The current mechanical implementation is underdeveloped.

Actually, that is a problem that falls flat on the face of the GM. It will always be possible for one party member to be overshadowed in a table top game. Unless the GM is keeping an eye on things, then that will always be a problem. Putting forth a special Niche for Earth Ponies won't solve that problem. I mean, what happens when you have a party that is made up of only one race? Then Niche Protection doesn't mean anything, and you are back to the same problem.

Fallacy. Because the GM can fix it doesn't mean it ain't broke.

Everypony agrees that restricting cyberpony to EPs is dumb. But a select few who make and maintain some of the rules insist on tying Cyberpony stuff in some way to EPs. No GM I know of actually restricts Cyberpony stuff to EPs. The last reason I remember being given for restricting to EPs was something along the lines of, "Okay, any race can become a basic cyberpony, but only EPs have the constitution necessary to survive while being given the more invasive cybernetics"

Wait, people commonly houserule cyberpony to other races? Then the EPs literally have nothing.

And Thanqol, I think the majority of the problem that people are having with your Invention EP magic is that it takes something previously open to everypony and restricts it in some fashion to be EP-exclusive, when it doesn't make a whole lot of sense overall.

Then they're reading it wrong. I'm not claiming a monopoly on awesome inventions, I'm claiming a monopoly on MacGuyvering up awesome inventions in five minutes with duct tape and imagination. People can still invent things.

Amusing.

Anyways, I'll happily refer you to the masters text Learning & Practicing Econometrics by Griffiths, W.E., R. C. Hill, and G. G. Judge, or practically any environmental econ text out there, if you'd actually like to read further into basic survey analysis. As I noted, that was a cursory overview of a basic survey, which is perfectly acceptable for such a simple analysis. 49 is, notably, fine for a sample size for such an analysis - not excellent, but far from fflawed. Most environmental econ existence-valuation surveys are functional with even less. I feel comfortable saying that Earth Ponies in general are the most populous race (if not strictly the most popular, though that can be inferred from such a result) given our sample, as 44% is unlikely to be a sampling error. As always, a more extensive sample could obviously change that result. Your argument was that there is an "overall 'Earth Ponies are useless' malaise." which looks to be entirely unsubstantiated by the player base.

Amusing? Don't cock your snook at me, sir. You don't understand the principle of selection bias? You don't understand that people might make choices that do not represent their best interests in a system as complex as this? You don't understand that there are reasons that EPs might be attractive choices other than their current implementation in the system? You don't understand that you've just provided the absolute numbers of EPs, without any analysis of the opinions or sentiments of the players of those EPs, or why they made that choice, or if they regret that choice?

Your statistics are flawed! Stop trying to apply them! Do a proper survey if you want to make a point!

[Night Light]

Amusing? Don't cock your snook at me, sir. You don't understand the principle of selection bias? You don't understand that people might make choices that do not represent their best interests in a system as complex as this? You don't understand that there are reasons that EPs might be attractive choices other than their current implementation in the system? You don't understand that you've just provided the absolute numbers of EPs, without any analysis of the opinions or sentiments of the players of those EPs, or why they made that choice, or if they regret that choice?

Your statistics are flawed! Stop trying to apply them! Do a proper survey if you want to make a point!

I meant amusing in comparing your two statements, not strictly the statements themselves, I apologize if there was any confusion.

Positive selection bias isn't a concern when there's no reason we would see Earth Ponies magically responding in greater numbers to a simple survey thread. Nor would we have any reason to assume that there would be a greater population of Earth Ponies among those that frequent the forums as compared to those that don't. In fact, I would argue that if there was such an "overall 'Earth Ponies are useless' malaise" feeling among those that frequent and discuss such topics on the forums, that the sample of Earth Ponies gathered in that thread could well have a negative selection bias and that the general ratio of Earth Ponies to other races is statistically higher than reflected.

Assuming "best interests" is defined as "what they think is going to be fun to play", I absolutely think people will play to their best interests. Either way, not the subject of a basic population characteristics analysis.

I set out to look at the absolute numbers of Earth Ponies in the given sample, from which we can infer a number of things, such as their relative proportional population as compared to other races. From this we can infer this reflects their relative popularity among the player base, much like other games (such as World of Warcraft and D&D) have done in the past. If you want to dive into a further survey to look at why players choose specific races or if they would rather have chosen a different race, I would happily participate and encourage others to do so. That was, however, in absolutely no way the focus of my basic population characteristics analysis.

[Viewing_Glass]

Actually, being able to invent things isn't what makes Earth Ponies flashy or good. What makes Earth Ponies flashy or good is the fact they flat out have more perks to become the best at what they do.

ONE extra perk. Singular.

Nothing says a unicorn has to get good at magic. The unicorn can totally neglect magic and be one perk behind an earth pony. One level 1-4 Perk, which can buy you +2 DT or +1 STR or something. In exchange, the unicorn can now teleport freely, or have significant out of combat healing potential, and a bunch of other things. A change to Pegasus buys you a 2x speed modifier and flight, that's hella worth the 2DT.

Or they could take Egghead and gain 2 extra skill points a level or take Hit the Deck and negate half of all explosives damage starting at level 1 or take Jus’ buck it an’ it’ll be fine! and ignore jamming 75% of the time when it would normally occur.

The unicorn could totally ignore their magic, but in return they give up that Niche Protection you were talking about. As for being able to spell cast freely...well, let's just say that the Strain Mechanic works quite well to keep a Unicorn from spellcasting freely. Some of the spells need to be tightened up, and I am working on that. And while being able to go twice as fast as anyone else, unless you are a melee/unarmed fighter, it generally isn't that big of a concern considering that range increments are in feet while movement is in yards.

Oh, and as for Mechanics being boring? Red Button, the Earth Pony Mechanic has done the following:

Mechanics is theoretically interesting. The current mechanical implementation is underdeveloped.

Alright. If you think its underdeveloped, how do we develop it further?

Actually, that is a problem that falls flat on the face of the GM. It will always be possible for one party member to be overshadowed in a table top game. Unless the GM is keeping an eye on things, then that will always be a problem. Putting forth a special Niche for Earth Ponies won't solve that problem. I mean, what happens when you have a party that is made up of only one race? Then Niche Protection doesn't mean anything, and you are back to the same problem.

Fallacy. Because the GM can fix it doesn't mean it ain't broke.

Actually, its quite true. I've seen players get overshadowed and been the player overshadowed in both RP and Mechanics (try playing a social character in a game that's a dungeon crawl sometime, or a combat-focused character in a game that's about politics). The GM is the ultimate control over whether or not a player will be overshadowed. While mechanics can help prevent a character from being overshadowed sometimes. it will never prevent a given character from being overshadowed.

Everypony agrees that restricting cyberpony to EPs is dumb. But a select few who make and maintain some of the rules insist on tying Cyberpony stuff in some way to EPs. No GM I know of actually restricts Cyberpony stuff to EPs. The last reason I remember being given for restricting to EPs was something along the lines of, "Okay, any race can become a basic cyberpony, but only EPs have the constitution necessary to survive while being given the more invasive cybernetics"

Wait, people commonly houserule cyberpony to other races? Then the EPs literally have nothing.

Actually, some people do, others don't. I know several people who don't like the current implementation of the Cybersuite perks, as they are the only perks that also give the player a penalty. But that is a discussion for a different time.

And Thanqol, I think the majority of the problem that people are having with your Invention EP magic is that it takes something previously open to everypony and restricts it in some fashion to be EP-exclusive, when it doesn't make a whole lot of sense overall.

Then they're reading it wrong. I'm not claiming a monopoly on awesome inventions, I'm claiming a monopoly on MacGuyvering up awesome inventions in five minutes with duct tape and imagination. People can still invent things.

And I quote:

Otherwise the list looks alright. My only concern is this clashes with the current rules that allows an Earth Pony to invent an item related to their special talent using their special talent skill, as well as clashing with the rules for building things from a schematic.

It doesn't 'clash' with those rules. It replaces them. And it doesn't 'replace' them because there's nothing to replace. I haven't seen any rules in the core document for building items from hoof, or what's involved, or what the costs are, which means that it's entirely in the realm of GM fiat. And I don't like the core special ability of characters being purely within the realm of GM fiat.

Bolded for our benefit.

In addition, each GM will have a different idea of what an item may cost in terms of components or time. While Rule 0 is to make sure in a given game that everyone (including the GM!) is having fun, Rule 1 is that the GM's word overwrites ALL rules. The current rules for invention help give the GM freedom within whatever setting he or she creates. So long as you aren't playing with an antagonistic GM, both player and GM should be more than willing to help create a list of materials. In some cases (such as the Stalliongrad game), the players have been asked to make schematics for an elevator, since the players had the time. The players invented the elevator schematic, handed it off to the NPCs, and let them take care of it. There was no need for materials because the PCs weren't bothering with making it, and they trusted the NPCs to be able to have/purchase/create the materials necessary. The current system is all about player and GM freedom and cooperation. And that is what makes it the current system really, really cool.

Amusing.

Anyways, I'll happily refer you to the masters text Learning & Practicing Econometrics by Griffiths, W.E., R. C. Hill, and G. G. Judge, or practically any environmental econ text out there, if you'd actually like to read further into basic survey analysis. As I noted, that was a cursory overview of a basic survey, which is perfectly acceptable for such a simple analysis. 49 is, notably, fine for a sample size for such an analysis - not excellent, but far from fflawed. Most environmental econ existence-valuation surveys are functional with even less. I feel comfortable saying that Earth Ponies in general are the most populous race (if not strictly the most popular, though that can be inferred from such a result) given our sample, as 44% is unlikely to be a sampling error. As always, a more extensive sample could obviously change that result. Your argument was that there is an "overall 'Earth Ponies are useless' malaise." which looks to be entirely unsubstantiated by the player base.

Amusing? Don't cock your snook at me, sir. You don't understand the principle of selection bias? You don't understand that people might make choices that do not represent their best interests in a system as complex as this? You don't understand that there are reasons that EPs might be attractive choices other than their current implementation in the system? You don't understand that you've just provided the absolute numbers of EPs, without any analysis of the opinions or sentiments of the players of those EPs, or why they made that choice, or if they regret that choice?

Your statistics are flawed! Stop trying to apply them! Do a proper survey if you want to make a point!

Huh. Ok. Looking at the linked article on Selection Bias, there are several ways the survey could have been biased.

• Sampling Bias: Well, the population we sampled from are people who visited the forum and play the game. The topic was created on Mon, June 24th, 2013 at 6:54 PM, and has been left open to the public for anyone who wants to respond. No one has been restricted from posting on the topic, its been of their own free will. No one was pre-selected, no one was discounted, and migration bias is almost impossible (as in they would have had to had no internet for a month and a half, which is unfortunate, but since we have no other way to get a hold of them). In fact, the only other bias that might be possible is self-selection, since Dance_Explosion included his own characters in the survey. So, subtract two zebras from the numbers presented.
• Time Interval: The topic is still open, so anyone can still post in it. No bias here.
• Susceptibility Bias: Ok. This might be clearer if it were called Casuality Bias, IE, because two things are often associated with each other, one is blamed for the other. However, the topic is just to provide information and not ask what a person believes. So, no bias here.
• Data Bias: Well, no one's responses have been rejected and no one has been tested using data we knew about. The only data bias possible would be if people were lying about what characters they had played. However, I am going to choose to believe that they posted accurately.
• Study Bias: We did not study other questionnaires, so no bias is present.
• Attrition Bias: Well, this study was not one done overtime. Unless someone got halfway through a post and decided to not post, this really doesn't apply.
• Observer Selection Bias: Does not apply, since we actually did the study.
• Avoidance Bias: Yeah...I don't think a majority of people who play unicorns, pegasi, griffons, zebra and alicorns chose not to respond to the survey.

I think the only potential bias might be one where the people decide not to play a given race based on the GM. For instance, I know some GMs make it extraordinarily difficult for Unicorns to learn spells. Or Zebras to gather herbs for alchemy, or flat out don't allow Alicorns in their games. However, it might be not a bad idea to ask folks to respond to a second survey, asking them to post the race of the characters they play and ask WHY they chose that race. I'd definitely be all for participating in that, and I would ask each group I am in (All...four of them) to respond to that survey, and encourage anyone else they play with to do the same.

[Thanqol]

I meant amusing in comparing your two statements, not strictly the statements themselves, I apologize if there was any confusion.

Positive selection bias isn't a concern when there's no reason we would see Earth Ponies magically responding in greater numbers to a simple survey thread. Nor would we have any reason to assume that there would be a greater population of Earth Ponies among those that frequent the forums as compared to those that don't. In fact, I would argue that if there was such an "overall 'Earth Ponies are useless' malaise" feeling among those that frequent and discuss such topics on the forums, that the sample of Earth Ponies gathered in that thread could well have a negative selection bias and that the general ratio of Earth Ponies to other races is statistically higher than reflected.

Assuming "best interests" is defined as "what they think is going to be fun to play", I absolutely think people will play to their best interests. Either way, not the subject of a basic population characteristics analysis.

I am also personally aware of incidents where people play earth ponies 'because we don't have one in the group', or because they're not optimising theorycrafters, or because they're inspired by the show, or the fic, etc. When I was introduced to the system I picked a pegasus because Rainbow Dash is best pony, not because of the mechanics, and I had to learn how to live with the mechanics because my choice was already made.

Then, later, when the pegasus trick system came out, it substantially increased my options, made my character vastly more pegasus-y, and greatly improved my enjoyment of the game.

You cannot say 'lots of people are playing EPs therefore the EP race is balanced and fun'. That is a leap of inference that cannot be made without further study.

I set out to look at the absolute numbers of Earth Ponies in the given sample, from which we can infer a number of things, such as their relative proportional population as compared to other races. From this we can infer this reflects their relative popularity among the player base, much like other games (such as World of Warcraft and D&D) have done in the past. If you want to dive into a further survey to look at why players choose specific races or if they would rather have chosen a different race, I would happily participate and encourage others to do so. That was, however, in absolutely no way the focus of my basic population characteristics analysis.

These inference are all suspect. To get an answer to your question you need to ask 'why did you chose to play an earth pony?' and see how many of them say 'because the mechanics are compelling'.

[Thanqol]

Or they could take Egghead and gain 2 extra skill points a level or take Hit the Deck and negate half of all explosives damage starting at level 1 or take Jus’ buck it an’ it’ll be fine! and ignore jamming 75% of the time when it would normally occur.

The point isn't that those choices aren't effective, it's that they're not EP exclusive.

The unicorn could totally ignore their magic, but in return they give up that Niche Protection you were talking about. As for being able to spell cast freely...well, let's just say that the Strain Mechanic works quite well to keep a Unicorn from spellcasting freely. Some of the spells need to be tightened up, and I am working on that. And while being able to go twice as fast as anyone else, unless you are a melee/unarmed fighter, it generally isn't that big of a concern considering that range increments are in feet while movement is in yards.

Strain scales up as you level. A level 10 unicorn with 5 END and 3 potency can cast Restoration 20 times to heal 24HP per shot, giving him basically 400 extra HP in between combats without spending a single spellcasting perk. Even flight rank one gives a gunfighter the ability to lift out of melee range and therefore attain immunity to hand-to-hand combat. These are strategic edges that far outweigh the extra +2 DT.

Alright. If you think its underdeveloped, how do we develop it further?

I made a thread?

It's not what you have to go with, but you could try rebutting assertions made in the thread.

Actually, its quite true. I've seen players get overshadowed and been the player overshadowed in both RP and Mechanics (try playing a social character in a game that's a dungeon crawl sometime, or a combat-focused character in a game that's about politics). The GM is the ultimate control over whether or not a player will be overshadowed. While mechanics can help prevent a character from being overshadowed sometimes. it will never prevent a given character from being overshadowed.

I am of the theory that every character should be designed to have something to do in physical, mental and social situations so that they're never left sitting uselessly.

Actually, some people do, others don't. I know several people who don't like the current implementation of the Cybersuite perks, as they are the only perks that also give the player a penalty. But that is a discussion for a different time.

Currently the EP niche is they make better cyborgs. If that's not even consistently applied then, well, then their niche is that they have one extra perk.

Bolded for our benefit.

I am arguing against the point that the supposed EP ability to 'create schematics' is so easily stolen by other pony races that it may as well not even be an ability.

The current system is all about player and GM freedom and cooperation. And that is what makes it the current system really, really cool.

I suspect I'm more widely travelled in the realm of RPG systems then you, which is why that I say, without malice, that the current system is not about that in the least. This is a simulationist system. It's hard and mathematical and uses spreadsheets and people are worried about internal balance. This is a very crunch heavy system with a very antagonistic, player v. GM series of assumptions and core mechanics. And that's fine! I like having a game like that in my cycle.

But if you're saying that the system is about freedom and cooperation then you're flat wrong because you don't know what a narrativist system looks like. You can't introduce a single narrativist, co-operate for max excellentness in a system like this because it doesn't work - if a player oversteps their mechanical bounds then they disrupt the carefully balanced system. In a world without pegasus tricks I can't come up with my own rules for shooting lightning bolts because that breaks the economy and isn't internally balanced.

In a world without rules for on-the-fly invention it can't be done. Except at GM fiat. Do we need rules for on-the-fly inventions? Not necessarily. Would it be cool and a nice completion to the cycle of things that was started with pegasus tricks? I think so.

[Dimestream]

And if a pony wants to go all Tony Stark and come up with the idea for a Holorifle while out in the wasteland and without, say, a military-industrial complex under their hooves with dozens of staff and assistants working together on the blueprints, then yeah. That's an Earth Pony.

I could not have said this better. This is what I imagined Earth Pony innovation, creativity, and sheer grit-and-elbow-grease work ethic should be. Which is why I cannot stress hard enough that this 'innovation point' mechanic is absolutely the wrong way to go about displaying it. As this is a topic very near and dear to me (I play two Earth Ponies, one of whom has the special talent of INVENTING, specifically), I will refrain from my usual overuse of pony-smilies, and just dive in.

My Two Bits on the Whole Idea

1. It limits player creativity. Anytime you lay down a set of rules that says "this is what you CAN do," it means that you CAN'T do anything else. Ironically, "Innovation Points" cripple innovation. As Night Light mentioned earlier, my inventor built a functional, if not terribly sturdy, gyrocopter out of bicycles and ceiling fans in order to catch up to a friend on a nearby roof. I've invented ghoul-seeking bomb-robots, pistol-tail replacements for Enclave stingers, specialized shaped charges, reverse-engineered a PipBuck Broadcaster peripheral, added flight capacity to a Super Speedy Cider Squeezy-based car, jury-rigged a wifi signal between PipBuck and Spritebot, and rebuilt and redesigned an Enclave Cloud Raptor's control systems to be used by ONE Earth Pony instead of six pegasi.

In no way does the Innovation Points system come even close to allowing the goofy or clever uses of innovation that player creativity on its own does. All it does is add another thing to argue about. Does building from scratch, my Toaster-based MEW doom-laser count as making a Party/Junk cannon AND having prismatic lenses? It's neither of those things. What about inventing a fashionable yet protective armored dress? There's nothing even close to that! You'd have arguments about taking MORE perks to be able to make new invention types, much like Pegasi need to make custom tricks, further inflating the already bloated Perks list. And it would happen only to bring us back to where we already are without this system: Being able to make things you've thought of, created, innovated yourself. There's no place for player innovation in Innovation Points.

2. It goes against both MLP and FOE canon and flavor. Building a 'magic system' for Earth Ponies could not be more wrong for the setting. Earth Pony Magic, as developed in MLP canon, is being the damned best at what you do. Maybe not doing it in as flashy a fashion, maybe not taking shortcuts to doing it with magic, or doing it whilst loop-de-looping around in the clouds. But doing it better, having the effects last longer, and really making your mark with your talents. In FOE canon, Earth Ponies could make a coffee cup that never seemed to chip or get filthy, even after two hundred years. Clipboards that you could practically armor a skywagon with. Build networks of trains that spanned a continent. Constraining all Earth Ponies to a "your magic system is entirely based on building temporary objects" is, again, limiting.

Earth Pony 'magic' such as it is seems a bit like a very gentle and benign form of necromancy, of all things, as you do put a little bit of your heart and soul into what you make. Making it based on rigid strictures of 'you may use these types and only these types of things' makes us lose the organic and natural way that Earth Ponies affect and improve the world around them. So the entire idea of "making temporary objects" is definitively off-flavor. That's what spells and flight magic is for. Temporary cloud fortresses. Temporary magic butterfly wings. Earth Ponies build new things that outlast the apocalypse.

True, It might take a little work on your part to come up with a solid reason why your strange invention should work, and pitch it coherently to your GM. After all, Manehattan wasn't built in a day... but Appaloosa was built in a year.

3.You can run out of brain. This really flummoxed me when I looked at it. Earth Ponies aren't the kind that blow all of their powers, spells, points, and shiny magic boomsticks at the beginning of the day. They're the friend that catches up to you at a walk half a day later, still going at their own pace, ready to help and support you back toward the next goal. The fact that, with this system, you could run out of the ability to innovate and create, simply because you spent your IP to dig a very large hole ten minutes ago, strikes me as patently insane. The mechanics are DIRECTLY limiting player creativity, simply by having the ability to have them run out!

This is already bad for an IRL game, where on-the-wire decision making can lead to interesting innovations, but it's catastrophic for an IRC game. Imagine having had a good idea for how to solve a problem started at the beginning of the game, and having the next, oh, half-hour to develop it because the pace of IRC is glacial. Your half-hour of brilliant scheming is curtailed by the fact that an hour ago in-game (three weeks ago IRL) you had another smart idea and implemented it. Now you've used up your allotted supply of clever. Sorry, Earth Pony. Go back to being magicless, only now you're not allowed to be creative either.

4. Earth Ponies are ALREADY cool. There's not, as Thanquol put it, an "Earth Ponies are useless" malaise. If Earth Ponies were truly useless, NO ONE would be playing them. Earth Ponies have the most diversity of choices in perks, by leaps and bounds. A specialist Earth Pony will beat anyone out. Without magic. Every time. Just not at low levels. An Earth Pony takes time to get started, but once they get time under their belt, there's no one better.

Earth Ponies are the backbone of Equestrian society, and always have been. Sure, they're not the one standing in the front in the group photo, wearing the shiniest armor, shooting glitter out of their horn. But they're the one who made that armor better than physically possible. And invented the glitter cannon. Sacrificing depth of ingenuity for slightly flashier moves is disingenuous at best, and at worst, damaging to the system, and the race as a whole.

Ah' Fixed It and Gears of Harmony: Between Ah' Fixed It and Gears of Harmony, these two perks allow earth ponies to have an affinity with mechanics unmatched by any other race in the wasteland. They can use technology that no other pony could, find uses for items other ponies would see as trash, and create unparalleled armor and weaponry.

Heh. This is exactly what I mean by all of this. Earth Ponies are unmatched. I can build a gyrocopter in ten minutes, reprogram a Spritebot in fifteen, and repair a Plasma Cannon with a popgun. Which race was it we were saying is worthless, now?

Lastly: If a player feels a need for a hard-coded inventing mechanic because they feel that "GM Fiat" is an issue, remember that GMs are there to facilitate a story, to work with players to make something awesome. If a GM is shutting down player agency and creativity, they are, to use the phrase, doing it wrong.

[Thanqol]

1. It limits player creativity.

No it doesn't. There's a line right there saying you can come up with new ones. I'm just trying to come up with a baseline mechanical frame of reference.

What level is it balanced to come up with a personal laser cannon? GM Fiat? Maybe never? No, now we have a practical answer.

2. It goes against both MLP and FOE canon and flavor.

What? No it doesn't. Applejack comes up with that complex unfolding cart thing, with multiple moving parts, offscreen in Best Night Ever. All the weird industrial machinery the CMC deals with. All of Pinkie Pie's random, temporary inventions. It's just as supported by evidence, and if it's not, a lot of the evidence concocted is after-the-fact justification for what people already think.

3.You can run out of brain.

Uh, Rainbow Dash can run out of backflips according to this system and Twilight Sparkle can run out of magic. Welcome to the FOE system.

4. Earth Ponies are ALREADY cool.

Add a horn to an EP and nothing of value is lost. Everything that they can do can be done by another pony.

Heh. This is exactly what I mean by all of this. Earth Ponies are unmatched. I can build a gyrocopter in ten minutes, reprogram a Spritebot in fifteen, and repair a Plasma Cannon with a popgun. Which race was it we were saying is worthless, now?

If your GM says you can?

Lastly: If a player feels a need for a hard-coded inventing mechanic because they feel that "GM Fiat" is an issue, remember that GMs are there to facilitate a story, to work with players to make something awesome. If a GM is shutting down player agency and creativity, they are, to use the phrase, doing it wrong.

Urgh, stop using this fallacy. I, as a GM, have no idea what inventions I should allow and reject because I don't know what'll break the game. I want a frame of reference to lean on.