Tier-based Weapon List

[uSea]

uhh...looking at your damage vs DT for melee weapons at least...and perhaps shotguns...one perk definitely throws things out of whack in a major way.


Piercing Strike/hoof(shotgun surgeon?) because they ignore a not unsubstantial amount of DT. It rather severely realigns things back toward lower AP weapons. I know that perks already have a pretty massive effect upon your table, but none quite so much as that little one right there does in one rank.

Yeah, those perks are very good, but I can't assume that a character has any particular perk. Like I can't assume a character who wants to fight in melee has STR and/or AGI 10. As it stands a character should find the weapons perfectly usable without min-maxing SPECIAL or being forced to only pick combat perks.

Of course, perks make the character more capable in their chosen field (and not all perks are created equal), but that's what they're supposed to do.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

So I've been looking over and thinking about the weapons list and I thought I've got some suggestions if nobody minds.

For existing weapons:

At tier 2 the slot for a long range rifle seems crowded. We've got the Hunting Rifle, Lever Action Rifle, and Cowboy Repeater, which all seem to have pretty similar stats and mods. Honestly, I'd drop the Lever action rifle, but that's just me. The point is that there just isn't a need for so many guns at the same tier doing virtually the same thing.

Also at tier 2 we have both the 9mm and 10mm SMGs. Again, two weapons doing the same job. Here, though, the 10mm is just better. Even when fully upgraded the 9mm's only big advantage is the clip size. As I understand a weapon's tier is determined by how dangerous it is in combat, and the 9mm is just less dangerous than the 10mm. I'd suggest moving the 9mm down one tier.

The Battle Rifle's mods seem weird to me. Both IRL and in-game Battle Rifles are used as a middle ground between Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles. Yet all the mods seem like they're trying to make the BR a better short-range weapon. Personally I'd say it shouldn't have those. Instead I'd give it a scope mod and call it good.

Methinks there's a problem with the 12.7mm SMG. Its listed ammo type is .45 Auto, which I'm fairly sure is wrong.

For the 12.7mm Pistol and SMG I find the silencers a little hard to believe. Yes, I know they're in NV but I just have a hard time with them. Plus, with the pistol I can suggest a more suitable modification: an extended barrel. And a scope. If those seem unreasonable, keep in mind the Desert Eagle is similarly proportioned pistol IRL and can be modified in both ways.

Now, some new weapon ideas:

Gauss weapons actually existed in the original Fallout games, and consisted of a non-sniper rifle and a pistol. Is there any chance we could get similar weapons for this rule set? Perhaps a Gauss Pistol and Gauss Carbine?

I've always thought the Chinese Pistol got unfairly treated in FO3, so how about we remedy that? A Zebra Pistol using 10mm ammo at tier 1. It should have less damage than the regular 10mm pistol, say about 10+ or 12+. Starting clip size is 10. However, upgrades include Extended Mags, a Laser Sight, and a Full Auto modification. The clip upgrade ups the mag size to 20, and Full Auto makes the weapon capable of automatic fire with a Rate of Fire of 3 or 4. Otherwise identical to the 10mm.

For more stealth fun, how about Repeating Crossbows? Just like the standard variety except with a 5 shot clip. The non-enchanted one should be tier 2, and the enchanted one tier 4. Also, would it be possible to introduce more varieties of bolts or are such things covered by imbuing the weapon with different spirits?

To “replace” the 9mm SMG at tier 2 and get more use out of 9mm ammo, I suggest a new 9mm SMG. Based off a RL model called the M960, This should have the same stats as the current 9mm SMG except that its RoF should be increased by 1 and the clip size is 50 standard and 100 with extended mags.

For a “replacement” stealth pistol at tier 4 (instead of a silenced 12.7mm) I propose an Assassin Pistol. Fires 9mm rounds for 20++ damage at 10 AP. Can use Burst Fire for 20 AP. Has a 20 round magazine, WG of 3, value of 2500, STR requirement of 4, and is Short ranged. Is considered a Pistol. Upgrades are a laser sight, suppressor, and extended mags for 24 round clips. And yes, this is based on the Robocop gun from Blood Dragon.

As replacement for the 12.7mm SMG's suppressor at tier 4 I propose a “Specter” Carbine. Essentially it's a heavily modified Assault Carbine, intended for covert ops. Compared to that it does 18+ damage for 20 AP and the value is 2000. Upgrades are the same, except this weapon doesn't accept the 40mm grenade launcher. Instead it can accept a suppressor (duh) and a night-vision scope.

In Fallout 2 the Bozar was available and was not considered a unique weapon. Is there any possibility it might appear in this rule set as a high tier weapon? In addition, is there any possibility of the Improved Flamer appearing?

Oh, and since this document contains armor stats as well I thought I might propose some more suits:

Magical-Biological-Chemical Combat Armor. Just what it says on the tin, normal combat armor sealed up and provided with a mask. Compared to combat armor it has +1 DT, +3 WG, is worth 600 caps and has the additional effect of providing 15% radiation resistance.

Tech-Warrior Armor. This based loosely on the RL Land Warrior system. In-game the base is combat armor again. This time the benefits are an inbuilt HUD, providing the user with a compass, ammo counter, etc. that result in +1 PER while being worn. The helmet has a built-in headlamp, which may be turned on or off at will. In addition the suit has some of the basic diagnostic systems a Pipbuck provides. The wearer gains +20 to Medicine for the purposes of treating/diagnosing themselves. A radio headset is also built in, allowing the user to send and receive over the radio. Sending range is rather limited, however. Due to the simpler nature of the systems, they are more resilient than the systems found in power armor. If they're shorted out by a spark grenade or something similar they will automatically reboot in 5 rounds. The wearer may attempt to reboot the system on their own with a Normal Science check.

Juggernaut Armor. A lower cost alternative to power armor, this is about the best protection you can get short of PA. Provides DT 20, 10% DT, -1 CHA, and +10 to Battle Saddles. 30 WG, value 1000, and doesn't prevent flight.

[SilverlightPony]

So I've been looking over and thinking about the weapons list and I thought I've got some suggestions if nobody minds.

For existing weapons:

At tier 2 the slot for a long range rifle seems crowded. We've got the Hunting Rifle, Lever Action Rifle, and Cowboy Repeater, which all seem to have pretty similar stats and mods. Honestly, I'd drop the Lever action rifle, but that's just me. The point is that there just isn't a need for so many guns at the same tier doing virtually the same thing.

I'm not huge on the tiered weapon list, but I can give one reason why this might be the way it is: flavor. Some players just like guns of a particular style.

That said, what exactly is the difference between a "cowboy repeater" and a lever-action rifle?

(While I'm on the subject, I may as well restate my opinion that Earth Ponies, who invented most of the non-magical tech in what became the Equestrian Wasteland, would not have invented lever-action guns, due to the difficulties of operating such an action without fingers. The only lever-action gun we see in FoE is being used by a griffon. This is why the custom lever-action rifle I made for my Octagon Group character (who is a unicorn, and thus isn't limited to operating guns with his hooves) was called a Griffon Repeater, and had mostly the same stats as the Markspony Rifle on TenMihara's weapon list.)

Methinks there's a problem with the 12.7mm SMG. Its listed ammo type is .45 Auto, which I'm fairly sure is wrong.

Yep, 12.7mm = 0.5", so 12.7mm ammunition is .50 caliber. In the case of pistols and SMGs, it's probably referring to the 12.7x33 ".50 Action Express" round—most famously used in the .50 Desert Eagle, which the 12.7mm Pistol in Fallout is based on.

For the 12.7mm Pistol and SMG I find the silencers a little hard to believe. Yes, I know they're in NV but I just have a hard time with them. Plus, with the pistol I can suggest a more suitable modification: an extended barrel. And a scope. If those seem unreasonable, keep in mind the Desert Eagle is similarly proportioned pistol IRL and can be modified in both ways.

http://www.qsmsilencers.com/50%20AE%20s ... stats.html

The term "silencer" can be misleading. No large-bore gun will ever be silent, even with one, which is why the more accurate term is "suppressor". A .50AE round fired from a suppressed gun will still probably be around 120dB, which is very loud, but it's a good 20-30dB (i.e., at least one order of magnitude; remember, dB is a logarithmic scale, not linear) quieter than the same round unsuppressed. Only small-caliber rounds can ever really be "silenced", although it becomes significantly easier if the propellant load is small enough to keep the projectile at subsonic speeds.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

I'm not huge on the tiered weapon list, but I can give one reason why this might be the way it is: flavor. Some players just like guns of a particular style.

That said, what exactly is the difference between a "cowboy repeater" and a lever-action rifle?

(While I'm on the subject, I may as well restate my opinion that Earth Ponies, who invented most of the non-magical tech in what became the Equestrian Wasteland, would not have invented lever-action guns, due to the difficulties of operating such an action without fingers. The only lever-action gun we see in FoE is being used by a griffon. This is why the custom lever-action rifle I made for my Octagon Group character (who is a unicorn, and thus isn't limited to operating guns with his hooves) was called a Griffon Repeater, and had mostly the same stats as the Markspony Rifle on TenMihara's weapon list.)

The difference is that the "cowboy repeater uses .357 rounds and the lever action rifle uses 10mm ammo. Also, the lever action rifle has double the ammo capacity, more damage, costs more AP, has slightly different mods, and isn't tube loaded (which makes no sense). On the whole the lever action seems like a middle ground between the hunting rifle and cowboy repeater that isn't needed IMO.

Yep, 12.7mm = 0.5", so 12.7mm ammunition is .50 caliber. In the case of pistols and SMGs, it's probably referring to the 12.7x33 ".50 Action Express" round—most famously used in the .50 Desert Eagle, which the 12.7mm Pistol in Fallout is based on.

What I meant is that the current weapon list has an error and should be fixed. I understand that 12.7mm = .5 inch.

http://www.qsmsilencers.com/50%20AE%20s ... stats.html

The term "silencer" can be misleading. No large-bore gun will ever be silent, even with one, which is why the more accurate term is "suppressor". A .50AE round fired from a suppressed gun will still probably be around 120dB, which is very loud, but it's a good 20-30dB (i.e., at least one order of magnitude; remember, dB is a logarithmic scale, not linear) quieter than the same round unsuppressed. Only small-caliber rounds can ever really be "silenced", although it becomes significantly easier if the propellant load is small enough to keep the projectile at subsonic speeds.

I stand corrected on that count, then. I know that silencers do not usually make a weapon anywhere near completely silent, but the term is used anyway for devices that reduce the sound of a gun firing. But as you point out, suppressor is more accurate. I should have used that.

My real objective there was twofold. First, to introduce the long barrel, purely for rule of cool reasons. And two, to remedy the fact that the supply of top tier stealth weapons seems, I dunno, limited? I hope that makes sense. Perhaps a long-barreled 12.7mm pistol could be added as a separate weapon? My only concern there is that you'll have two weapons competing for doing pretty much the same job: the Hunting Revolver and the long-barreled 12.7mm.

[SilverlightPony]

The difference is that the "cowboy repeater uses .357 rounds and the lever action rifle uses 10mm ammo. Also, the lever action rifle has double the ammo capacity, more damage, costs more AP, has slightly different mods, and isn't tube loaded (which makes no sense). On the whole the lever action seems like a middle ground between the hunting rifle and cowboy repeater that isn't needed IMO.

I'd suggest changing the name of the "lever action rifle" then, as "cowboy repeater" is generally a slang term for lever-action repeaters.

For reference, FNV had three lever-action rifles in the game: the Trail Carbine, the Cowboy Repeater, and the Brush Gun (in ascending order by power and value). We don't need to match that exactly, but it's a useful reference point.

What I meant is that the current weapon list has an error and should be fixed. I understand that 12.7mm = .5 inch.

I was mainly expounding on that for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread.

I stand corrected on that count, then. I know that silencers do not usually make a weapon anywhere near completely silent, but the term is used anyway for devices that reduce the sound of a gun firing. But as you point out, suppressor is more accurate. I should have used that.

My real objective there was twofold. First, to introduce the long barrel, purely for rule of cool reasons. And two, to remedy the fact that the supply of top tier stealth weapons seems, I dunno, limited? I hope that makes sense. Perhaps a long-barreled 12.7mm pistol could be added as a separate weapon? My only concern there is that you'll have two weapons competing for doing pretty much the same job: the Hunting Revolver and the long-barreled 12.7mm.

Add a long barrel as an available mod for the 12.7mm pistol. More options is rarely a bad thing.

And having two guns with similar roles but different flavor isn't a bad thing. Some people prefer semiautomatics, some people think revolvers are just better. I'd go so far as to say having only one gun for each role at each tier is a bad thing.

[uSea]

Hi Tank! Thanks for the feedback.

So I've been looking over and thinking about the weapons list and I thought I've got some suggestions if nobody minds.

For existing weapons:

At tier 2 the slot for a long range rifle seems crowded. We've got the Hunting Rifle, Lever Action Rifle, and Cowboy Repeater, which all seem to have pretty similar stats and mods. Honestly, I'd drop the Lever action rifle, but that's just me. The point is that there just isn't a need for so many guns at the same tier doing virtually the same thing.

Also at tier 2 we have both the 9mm and 10mm SMGs. Again, two weapons doing the same job. Here, though, the 10mm is just better. Even when fully upgraded the 9mm's only big advantage is the clip size. As I understand a weapon's tier is determined by how dangerous it is in combat, and the 9mm is just less dangerous than the 10mm. I'd suggest moving the 9mm down one tier.

The Lever Action Rifle is based on the one found in the Point Lookout dlc, but I haven't actually played it so I only had the stat numbers to go on. Since, as you say, there are quite a few long rifles at T2, I could see the Lever Action dropping to T1. There it would be a slow but powerful option compared to the Varmint Rifle.

The 9mm SMG's main advantage over the 10mm currently is the price of ammo. 9mm rounds are half the price which can make quite a difference when you are firing 16 rounds for 60AP. I could see making it cheaper to buy the gun, so it would sit in between the T1/T2 price range. To be honest I'm not really happy with how similar automatic weapons are to each other, but I don't know what else to do while it costs the same AP to fire once, three times, or full auto (RoFx1.5 avg hits).

The Battle Rifle's mods seem weird to me. Both IRL and in-game Battle Rifles are used as a middle ground between Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles. Yet all the mods seem like they're trying to make the BR a better short-range weapon. Personally I'd say it shouldn't have those. Instead I'd give it a scope mod and call it good.

Added the option for a Scope mod to the Battle Rifle. Using a Trail Carbine Scope mod on the weapon should be good enough for a wastelander looking to home-mod their guns.

Methinks there's a problem with the 12.7mm SMG. Its listed ammo type is .45 Auto, which I'm fairly sure is wrong.

Yup, this was an error. Thanks for spotting it!

For the 12.7mm Pistol and SMG I find the silencers a little hard to believe. Yes, I know they're in NV but I just have a hard time with them. Plus, with the pistol I can suggest a more suitable modification: an extended barrel. And a scope. If those seem unreasonable, keep in mind the Desert Eagle is similarly proportioned pistol IRL and can be modified in both ways.

As you mentioned they have those mods because they have them in NV. When making extra mods for the weapons I tried to keep things as they were from those games as much as possible, which is why the Long Barrel mods I added are almost exclusively found on revolvers (with the Lever-Action Rifle being an exception that came from a game without mods). Given the large caliber of the 12.7mm bullet I've added a penalty to those two silencer mods.

Now, some new weapon ideas:

Ooo, gauss weapons and repeater crossbows. They sound fun. I'd like to add some of those.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

I'd suggest changing the name of the "lever action rifle" then, as "cowboy repeater" is generally a slang term for lever-action repeaters.

For reference, FNV had three lever-action rifles in the game: the Trail Carbine, the Cowboy Repeater, and the Brush Gun (in ascending order by power and value). We don't need to match that exactly, but it's a useful reference point.

This list has all three of those, plus the Lever Action Rifle which is lifted from Point Lookout. Renaming is a decent enough solution, I suppose, but it still seems to me that the lever action leaves the cowboy repeater in the dust.

I was mainly expounding on that for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread.

Oh. Sorry about that, then.

Add a long barrel as an available mod for the 12.7mm pistol. More options is rarely a bad thing.

And having two guns with similar roles but different flavor isn't a bad thing. Some people prefer semiautomatics, some people think revolvers are just better. I'd go so far as to say having only one gun for each role at each tier is a bad thing.

Point taken on having lots of different guns for flavor. Particularly since some players will actually be going for a certain "look" for their character. An assassin who's supposed to be wielding the most cutting edge equipment available looks kinda weird with a western style revolver.

In this case I'll just go with that idea: long barrel mod for the 12.7mm pistol.

[Tankenstein_PhD]

Hi Tank! Thanks for the feedback.

No problem.

The Lever Action Rifle is based on the one found in the Point Lookout dlc, but I haven't actually played it so I only had the stat numbers to go on. Since, as you say, there are quite a few long rifles at T2, I could see the Lever Action dropping to T1. There it would be a slow but powerful option compared to the Varmint Rifle.

I worry a little about that option. I think with its current stats and upgrades the lever action rifle might be too powerful for tier 1. Honestly I'm not sure what to do about it myself.

The 9mm SMG's main advantage over the 10mm currently is the price of ammo. 9mm rounds are half the price which can make quite a difference when you are firing 16 rounds for 60AP. I could see making it cheaper to buy the gun, so it would sit in between the T1/T2 price range. To be honest I'm not really happy with how similar automatic weapons are to each other, but I don't know what else to do while it costs the same AP to fire once, three times, or full auto (RoFx1.5 avg hits).

Point taken. I'm not really sure what to say about making automatics more unique, I'm afraid. My gripe in this particular case, though, is that cheaper ammo and a lower STR requirement are little consolation when the 10mm SMG does more damage and gets a mod that removes the penalty for full auto.

Added the option for a Scope mod to the Battle Rifle. Using a Trail Carbine Scope mod on the weapon should be good enough for a wastelander looking to home-mod their guns.

Many thanks. Though I didn't realize there were different scopes with different effects.

Yup, this was an error. Thanks for spotting it!

No problem.

As you mentioned they have those mods because they have them in NV. When making extra mods for the weapons I tried to keep things as they were from those games as much as possible, which is why the Long Barrel mods I added are almost exclusively found on revolvers (with the Lever-Action Rifle being an exception that came from a game without mods). Given the large caliber of the 12.7mm bullet I've added a penalty to those two silencer mods.

Going off the games is a good beginning, I'm just looking to spice things up a bit more. Oh, and the penalty is more realistic but don't let that get in the way of balance if it comes to that.

Ooo, gauss weapons and repeater crossbows. They sound fun. I'd like to add some of those.

The Gauss weapons might be tricky, since their stats would be from the earlier FO games. It'd involve being a bit more inventive. The repeater crossbows, as I said, would essentially be the existing crossbows just with 5 shot clips and moved up a tier. Same mods, just with the ability to abuse their low AP costs by firing repeatedly in the same turn. So the repeating crossbow would be tier 3 and the repeating enchanted crossbow at tier 4. Costs would have to be tweaked a bit as well.

I'll see if I can't come up with some preliminary stats for the Gauss weapons, though.

As a general question, are there any opinions on the new stuff I proposed? Good, bad, indifferent?

[Tankenstein_PhD]

So here goes, some possible stats for more Gauss weapons. For you, uSea. I went off of the Gauss Rifle a little, but I had in mind that that one is supposed to be the “sniper” weapon of the bunch. The rest, I reasoned, would be a sort of “middle ground” between laser and plasma weapons. Plasma is sort of the unwieldy but powerful weapon, laser the weak but precise version, and Gauss being in the middle. Also, going off the Rifle I opted to still have these fire “normal” energy weapon ammo instead of something different like the Gauss weapons in FO 2 did.

Gauss Pistol – Tier 2. 20+ DAM, 20 AP, RoF -, 20 round clip, fires Spark Cells, Wg 4, Value 250, STR req. 3, Medium range, Pistol. Special: Magic, -2 DT.

At present I don't know of any upgrades I can suggest for this besides a hi-cap terminal.

Gauss Carbine – Tier 3. 32+ DAM, 20 AP, RoF -, 20 round clip, fires MFCs, Wg 8, Value 1000, STR req. 4, Medium range, Rifle. Special: Magic, -2 DT, Carbine.

Again, no upgrade ideas at present besides a hi-cap terminal.

Feedback appreciated. Lemme know what you think.

[Ghostpony]

So I built the character that uses a crossbow. then I looked at available crossbow mods that the character might want to buy. I found this: Crossbow Poison Reserve need Box of Materials [Paint Gun, Tape, Glue] (12), Bundle of Medical Supplies (25), Poison Glands (25). So I looked for what it did. However it doesn't actually say what it does beyond Applies poison to the bolts. Requires poison.

So my question is, if the bolt's get poison applied all the time what poison does it apply? If it doesn't have a unlimited poison supply why does it need 25 poison glands to build? Also if you have to provide your own poison how long does it last? (how many shots before it runs dry?)

I would also suggest a Goatsfoot or other rapid reload mod. Also there is no mod to make a repeating crossbow.